From: Platt Holden (pholden@sc.rr.com)
Date: Tue Mar 02 2004 - 13:19:16 GMT
Hi Poot,
> Platt : What's the problem with money determining value? What's the problem
> with inequality?
>
> Poot: ?! What is the problem with money determining value? Please tell
> me you're being sarcastic here.
>
> If not, then I suggest you try reading these really interesting books,
> written by this guy named Robert M. Pirsig. You could learn a lot!
"There's nothing vague about a value judgment. .When a voter goes to the
polling booth he's making a value Judgment. What's so vague about that?
Isn't an election a cultural activity? What's so vague about the New York
stock exchanges? Aren't values what they're dealing in? How about the U.S.
Treasury? Who in this world is more specific than the Internal Revenue
Service?" (Lila, Chp.5)
> Platt: Unlike government, the market can't put a gun to your head to make
> you
> behave a certain way. Freedom means freedom from government coercion. It
> doesn't mean freedom from natural biological forces.
>
> Poot: Right now, the government is at the mercy of the market. If you
> think that the market has no control over the way we live, than I suggest
> you take a trip to the poorer parts of town, and see how many grocery
> stores there are...then count how many McDonalds there are.
Would you open a grocery store in the ghetto?
> Freedom means freedom from _whatever_ is oppressing, not just from
> government coercion.
Oppression without coercion is meaningless.
> Why do you think riding a motorcycle feels "like
> being completely free". To say that it doesn't mean freedom from natural
> biological forces may have some truth, but I severly doubt that it is as
> absolute as you are implying.
>
> Money is anti-quality. At least the way we use it today.
See quote from Pirsig above.
> Platt: Since government is responsible for education, where shall we place
> the blame for such ignorance?
>
> Poot: Well, we all like playing the blame game, but what does it really
> accomplish? WE all know (or at least I thought most of us here did) what
> and where the sources of a great many of our secular problems arise from.
Kindly reveal to me what "we all know" about the sources of our problems.
Perhaps the fact that intellect which claims the right to control society
has no provision for morals?
> DM: Now sure, capitalism has had a role in creating more freedom, better
> record than Soviet communism, but I want more freedom than now,
> let's never rest in the struggle for DQ & freedom. Above all we
> need to have proper democratic control over the major resources
> and productive powers in our society, no more corporate moral
> vacuum.
>
> Poot: Yes. WE live in an ogligarchy, where apathy seems to be it's
> unnoficial motto.
> Many people look at persons such as Donald Trump , and almost idolize him
> because he has become a """" success """" Yet, therein lies the problem
> Why is he important? What makes him a success? Money? If money is the
> determining factor of becoming a true success, than "may God help us all"
How would you define "true success?" What criteria do you use?
> Platt:What sort of arrangement would you suggest to assure "proper
> democratic
> control of the major resources and productive powers of society?" When you
> use a word like "control," I shudder to think of what your enforcement
> might include. We already see the danger to freedom in threats by the FCC
> to censor Howard Stern and other avoidable "offensive" acts. The logical
> next step is to censor all criticisms of the government as detrimental to
> the public good. Scary stuff don't you think?.
> Poot: Excuse me if I am taking words out of DM's mouth. You overlook the
> most , the most important word Platt. WE. WE must have control. WE must
> be able to regulate what happens in the world in which WE live in. Not
> some jackass , who has not a care in the world about what the real
> consequences of his/her actions, but only for whether or not they will
> increase they're power, or whether it'll keep them in office long enough to
> make them the most amount of money. Now I will get specific.
Please define WE. Does it include Bush and his millions of supporters? Or
just those who agree with you?
> What does George "dubya" Bush know? about anything? Everything in his
> life, has been handed to him on a plastic platter (to help support the
> petroleum industry of course!) He smoked crack, drove drunk, and beat his
> wife, lost the election, AND IS STILL THE @#$!ing PRESIDENT!
A tantrum undeserving of comment.
Platt
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