Re: MD When is a metaphysics not a metaphysics?

From: David MOREY (us@divadeus.freeserve.co.uk)
Date: Thu Mar 04 2004 - 19:11:43 GMT

  • Next message: Matt poot: "Re: MD Quality and In-e-quality"

    Hi Matt

    Yes and no. Sure there are good aspects to liberalism that we would want to
    carry forward
    and they can be uncoupled from SOM. Sure democracy has to be held on to as a
    value but
    without the challenge/criticism of stuff like philosophy we will end up with
    a stagnant conception
    of democracy. As for healthcare, spend more on it? not sure, we already
    spend more than any
    civilisation ever. Are we too scared of death? Why are we so ill and unfit
    and streesed?
    I am certainly not one for pessimism and giving up the dreaming. But Rorty
    too has come
    to despair about the greed of the upper/middle classes and the barbarism
    they are taking us toward.
    Well, maybe those middle class values he stands up for need to come under a
    bit more
    questioning than he gives them. Once we had universal western christian
    brotherhood, then came
    the protestant-capitalist-inidvidualist threesome. Great for
    secularism/pluralism/productivity/capital/wealth/
    freedom but terrible for social structure and unity. And look how it now
    goes, we can't produce
    the capable individuals that our christian societies used to produce.There
    seems to be no progress
    in our civilisation any more. See this link, it seems about right:

    http://www.onlineoriginals.com/showitem.asp?itemID=135

    regards
    David M

    regards
    David M
    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "MATTHEW PAUL KUNDERT" <mpkundert@students.wisc.edu>
    To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
    Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 8:41 PM
    Subject: Re: MD When is a metaphysics not a metaphysics?

    > David,
    >
    > David said:
    > Indeed, what I ask is the same question, what can we do to improve this
    existence? I think we need to promote the MOQ over the limitations of SOM. I
    also suggest liberalism is tied to SOM, so that moving beyond SOM probably
    means going beyond liberalism. We have to undermine the present aristocracy,
    with its patronage, corruption, inequality, illegitimacy, etc; not uphold
    its power by accepting private ownership and property, appalling standards
    of education, the moral vacuum at the heart of corporate life, etc.
    >
    > Matt:
    > This is where we disagree: I agree that we should promote post-SOMic
    thinking, but I do not think that liberalism is tied to SOM. I don't agree
    with former Marxist, postmodern literary theorists like Fredric Jameson,
    Terry Eagleton, and Paul de Man that renunciation of Kant's philosophical
    dreams entails the renunciation of Kant's political dreams. Rorty says it
    best when he argues that there were two Enlightenment projects, not one.
    The contradiction in liberal discourse only occurs when we use the
    Enlightenment's philosophical vocabulary and Rorty's efforts since the
    beginning of the 80's have been to untie liberal, Enlightenment political
    discourse from this Kantian way of formulating our hopes and dreams.
    >
    > So, when you ask what I'm proposing to improve this existence, I start
    talking about typical leftist reforms like universal health care. What I
    don't talk about are typical philosophical reforms like truth as a property
    of sentences. Its not that these philosophical reforms wouldn't benefit our
    culture, its only that in the short term, universal health care would help
    more than convincing everyone to be a pragmatist. In the long run, it would
    be great for the two to dovetail together, but as a matter of strategy,
    democracy has priority over philosophy.
    >
    > Matt
    >
    >
    >
    > MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
    > Mail Archives:
    > Aug '98 - Oct '02 - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
    > Nov '02 Onward -
    http://www.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/summary.html
    > MD Queries - horse@darkstar.uk.net
    >
    > To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
    > http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
    >

    MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
    Mail Archives:
    Aug '98 - Oct '02 - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
    Nov '02 Onward - http://www.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/summary.html
    MD Queries - horse@darkstar.uk.net

    To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
    http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html

    This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.5 : Thu Mar 04 2004 - 20:09:04 GMT