From: Joe (jhmau@sbcglobal.net)
Date: Thu Mar 11 2004 - 23:30:57 GMT
On 4 March 2004 8:31 AM Paul writes to Leland and Platt:
Paul:
I think the MOQ makes an interesting contribution to the discussion of
individual freedom by categorising it according to evolution. With
respect to your comment above, individual freedom can be separated out
into biological, social and intellectual freedom. With this
categorisation in mind we can begin by saying that the MOQ supports
*intellectual* freedom from the state but not *biological* freedom. This
is a broad categorisation which needs some filling in, but doing so may
help bring clarity to a discussion around what constitutes a *good*
relationship between individuals and government?
On 7 March 2004 2:34 PM Mark writes:
Mark:
I wonder has anyone watched, *How to murder your wife* starring Jack Lemmon?
There is a scene in which Lemmon's boss is being kept in a perpetual state
of uncertainty by his wife at a party. The husband and wife relationship i
visited last week displayed the same patterns and it was only until then
that i had noticed. When did i notice this, i wondered why i had not seen
it before?
I think the answer to that is twofold: First of all, I am not a keen
observer of Human relationships; they do not concern me very much.
Secondly, we are very often too close to see the wood for the trees? In
this respect, a bit of distance and a bit of removed contemplation can
reveal things one may never usually have tumbled?
Hi Paul, Leland, Platt, Mark and all,
joe: thank you! Mark and Paul for limits.
Mark's musing: "I wondered why i had not seen it before?" and his answer
seem to be a way of approachng the experience of an 'initiate', a mystical
way.
Paul: "This is a broad......government?" seems to be an attempt to put a
boundary on a 'way of an initiate'.
joe: words are limits. How can I describe the indefinable? I accept
Mark's description of sq sq tensions and coherence. I accept Paul's
"categorising it according to evolution."
IMO words:
Mathematics-inorganic
Purpose-food-organic
Existence-a moral order-social
Quality-s/odivision-intellectual
IMO mathematics are words of the inorganic order. The values of the
inorganic order contain the evolution which originates in that order. DQ
Gravity is dynamic in the inorganic order. The other forces, weak nuclear,
strong nuclear, electromagnetic, indicate complex dynamics which evolvew
into organic, social and intellectual orders. DQ
IMO the organic becomes a new order, perhaps, through the latching effects
of solar influence. DQ Seeking food involves a moving force apart from
gravity. I like the word 'purpose' to describe this new dynamic. An
individual in the organic order experiences 'purpose', needing and
recognizing food. The chance of gravity has been modified. I experience
'purpose' as a hunger.
IMO from the inorganic-organic orders the social becomes a new order,
perhaps through the latching effects of galactic influences. DQ Hiearchy
producing morality is the new order. A morality seems to involve something
which latches 'gravity' and 'purpose'. I like the word 'existence' to
describe this new dynamic. I experience 'existence' as a hierarchy.
Attitudes exist. In what order? 'Existence' (order, morality) is a
separate dymnamic from 'gravity' and 'purpose'. DQ I experience the social
order as a hiearchy. I do one thing before another. When order conflicts
with hunger, I become tense and oppressed. Two dynamics in an individual
duking it out.
I have questions about my experience of 'existence' in self-awareness? I
experience an order of preference, a moral order? Many times my
self-awareness is clouded in error. I have many precedences in my
awareness, e.g., time. Time is not 'existence'?
IMO from the inorganic-organic-social order a universal influence latches
'gravity', 'purpose', 'existence', and the intellectual order becomes a new
order. DQ Until my self-awareness grows beyond intellectual, I have no
place to stand to examine the intellectual order. I sense a slowness, a
massiveness, in the intellectual order, a universal experience. If the
intellctual order moves everything moves. I say that the mystical
experience of the intellectual order, an initiate's experience, is
mathematical, purposeful, hierarchical. I experience quality evolving
through the inorganic, organic, social orders to joy, freedom, dynamic and
static.
I experience an s/o divide. SOM indicates that experience can be
misunderstood. I, an individual, can experience hunger, order,
incompleteness (freedom), all at the same time. My only course to sanity is
to deny all. I reflect on order. I see this and that in an order.
I admire Pirsig emphasizing quality. Quoting him has a flavor of quoting
someone precious. Mythos before logos: a change in the mythology, the
mystical, changes history. At different times on different places on the
globe culture changes. Bo' emphasis on s/o being the form of an
intellectual pattern disturbs my complacency. Morality and responsibility
are connected? 'Existence' to 'quality' I live differently. I have no idea
how to put limits on the universal force which enables the
inorganic-organic-social to evolve the intellectual order? DQ
IMO Quality exists! Intellectual is dynamic in the moral order. The law of
gravity, the law of purpose, the law of existence, the law of quality. If I
see 'existence' in the social order, what is 'real'? I don't know! I
describe 'real' as quality in some order for a purpose. DQ
Joe
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