From: David Buchanan (DBuchanan@ClassicalRadio.org)
Date: Sun Mar 21 2004 - 01:47:38 GMT
Sam and all MOQers:
Sam said:
I think the equation of God (or tao) with DQ is a mistake, even leaving
aside theological quibbles. As I understand the MoQ, the equivalent of God
(or tao) is Quality - which is then subdivided into dynamic and static, and
no subdivision can be the highest term.
dmb says:
These quotes should make it clear that DQ is "associated with" and
"indentified with" religious mysticism. And I think that if we qualify the
meaning of God to reflect a mystical One rather than any static
representations, then we can safely say that God and DQ are terms that both
refer to the same thing.
Pirsig in Lila chapter 30:
"The MOQ associates religious mysticism with Dynamic Quality but it would
certainly be a mistake to think that the MOQ endorses the static beliefs of
any particular religious sect. Phaedrus thought sectarian religion was a
static social fallout of DQ and that while some sects had fallen less than
others, none of them told the whole truth."
"He thought about how once this integration occurs and DQ is identified with
religious mysticism it produces an avalanche of information as to what
Dynamic Quality is. A lot of this relgious mysticism is just low-grade
"yelping about God" of course, but if you search for the sources of it and
don't take the yelps too literally a lot of interesting things turn up."
dmb continues:
Your second point, that both sq and DQ together are equal to God, seems to
come from somewhere other than Pirsig's work. It seems to defy the
distinctions Pirsig is making between DQ and its static fallout in the
quotes above. In an ultimate sense, say the mystics, reality is undivided.
And yet the task is to realize that. Prior to the completion of that task we
are all cursed with the belief in a world of separate objects, of
dividedness. This illusory world is the static world, and normally we don't
think of that as God. That's why neither intellectual speculations nor
theological dogmas can be adequate substitutes for the actual experience.
They're part of what needs to be let go of in order to shatter that
illusion.
"Some of the most honored philosophers in history have been mystics:
Plotinus, Swedenborg, Loyola, Shankaracharya and many others. They share a
common belief that the fundamental nature of reality is outside language;
that language splits things up into parts while the true nature of reality
is undivided. Zen, which is a mystic religion, argues that the illusion of
dividedness can be overcome by meditation. The Native American Church argues
that peyote can force-feed a mystic understanding upon those who were
normally resistant to it,..." LILA (ch 5)
Sam said:
The common lapse into equating dynamic quality with God (or tao) reflects
cultural biases in favour of innovation and "progress" rather than Pirsig's
own thought, IMHO. What makes a DQ innovation positive rather than negative
is precisely its integration with static patterns - so DQ and SQ are yoked
together like yin and yang. Pirsig preserves that balance. Many contributors
do not - again, IMHO ;-)
dmb says:
Hmmm. It seems you changed the subject from religion to evolution. Aren't we
talking about quality religions? We're taljing about an profound experience
of union, not the belief in progress. (Interesting topic for another thread,
perhaps)
"Whatever nuance the language of union is given, if there is to be talk of
mysticism, some sort of deep union must be involved. It perhaps cannot be
emphasized enough that to speak of mysticism is to speak of an EXPERIENCE of
union and not merely speculations about union." (Guidebook to ZAMM P27)
dmb continues:
If there is a Western cultural bias with respect to religious mysticism, and
there most certainly is, it is almost wholly negative if not completely
forgotten. This problem is not restricted to religion either. Its bigger
than than. SOM intellect rejects mysticism with even more vigor than the
churches, but that doesn't relieve the churches of the same tendency.
Pirsig:
"Phaedrus saw nothing wrong with this ritualistic religion as long as the
rituals are seen as merely a static portrayal of Dynamic Quality, a
sign-post which allows socially pattern-dominated people to see Dynamic
Quality. The danger has always been that the rituals, the static patterns,
are mistaken for what they merely represent and are allowed to destroy the
Dynamic Quality they were originally intended to preserve."
Pirsig:
"In all religions bishops tend to gild Dynamic Quality with all sorts of
static interpretations because their cultures require it. But these
interpretations become like golden vines that cling to a tree, shut out its
sunlight and eventually strangle it."
From C.G. Jung's MEMORIES, DREAMS, REFLECTIONS:
"I was equally sure that none of the theologians I knew had ever seen "the
light that shineth in the darkness" with his own eyes, for if they had they
would not have been able to teach a "theological religion," which seemed
quite inadequate to me, since there was nothing to do with it but believe it
without hope. This is what my father (a Reformed pastor) had tried valiantly
to do and had run aground. .. I recognized that this celebrated faith of his
had played a deadly trick on him, and not only on him but on most of the
cultivated and serious people I knew. The arch sin of faith, it seemed to
me, was that it forestalled experience."
Matthew Fox The Coming of the Cosmic Christ:
"The Christian West was too alienated from its own mystical tradition to
resist this secular effort to eliminate a living cosmology, symbolized
religiously by the Cosmic Christ. Augustine's theology, which heavily
influenced the philosophy of Descrates, has no Cosmic Christ. Augustine's
preoccupation with human guilt and salvaltion offered no resistance ..."
Thanks,
dmb
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