From: David MOREY (us@divadeus.freeserve.co.uk)
Date: Sun Mar 21 2004 - 13:06:29 GMT
Hi DMB
Another solid post.
dmb continues:
Your second point, that both sq and DQ together are equal to God, seems to
come from somewhere other than Pirsig's work. It seems to defy the
distinctions Pirsig is making between DQ and its static fallout in the
quotes above. In an ultimate sense, say the mystics, reality is undivided.
And yet the task is to realize that. Prior to the completion of that task we
are all cursed with the belief in a world of separate objects, of
dividedness. This illusory world is the static world, and normally we don't
think of that as God. That's why neither intellectual speculations nor
theological dogmas can be adequate substitutes for the actual experience.
They're part of what needs to be let go of in order to shatter that
illusion.
DM: I think that what you and Sam say can be tied together. The whole point
of MOQ
is to replace SOM, what SOM does is to forget DQ aspects of experience and
try to understand
the cosmos in terms of SQ aspects of experience. There is therefore a
falling away to the pole of SQ
in SOM that takes us away from the underlying unity of experience. To
re-discover DQ is therefore to
move back towards unity. But the whole is quality or SQ & DQ. SQ is not an
illusion, SQ without DQ is
the illusion, or SQ as the totality/whole. The genuine wholeness of
experience underlies of includes SQ/DQ.
Does that makes sense?
regards
David M
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Buchanan" <DBuchanan@ClassicalRadio.org>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Sunday, March 21, 2004 1:47 AM
Subject: RE: MD quality religion
> Sam and all MOQers:
>
> Sam said:
> I think the equation of God (or tao) with DQ is a mistake, even leaving
> aside theological quibbles. As I understand the MoQ, the equivalent of God
> (or tao) is Quality - which is then subdivided into dynamic and static,
and
> no subdivision can be the highest term.
>
> dmb says:
> These quotes should make it clear that DQ is "associated with" and
> "indentified with" religious mysticism. And I think that if we qualify the
> meaning of God to reflect a mystical One rather than any static
> representations, then we can safely say that God and DQ are terms that
both
> refer to the same thing.
>
> Pirsig in Lila chapter 30:
> "The MOQ associates religious mysticism with Dynamic Quality but it would
> certainly be a mistake to think that the MOQ endorses the static beliefs
of
> any particular religious sect. Phaedrus thought sectarian religion was a
> static social fallout of DQ and that while some sects had fallen less than
> others, none of them told the whole truth."
>
> "He thought about how once this integration occurs and DQ is identified
with
> religious mysticism it produces an avalanche of information as to what
> Dynamic Quality is. A lot of this relgious mysticism is just low-grade
> "yelping about God" of course, but if you search for the sources of it and
> don't take the yelps too literally a lot of interesting things turn up."
>
> dmb continues:
> Your second point, that both sq and DQ together are equal to God, seems to
> come from somewhere other than Pirsig's work. It seems to defy the
> distinctions Pirsig is making between DQ and its static fallout in the
> quotes above. In an ultimate sense, say the mystics, reality is undivided.
> And yet the task is to realize that. Prior to the completion of that task
we
> are all cursed with the belief in a world of separate objects, of
> dividedness. This illusory world is the static world, and normally we
don't
> think of that as God. That's why neither intellectual speculations nor
> theological dogmas can be adequate substitutes for the actual experience.
> They're part of what needs to be let go of in order to shatter that
> illusion.
>
> "Some of the most honored philosophers in history have been mystics:
> Plotinus, Swedenborg, Loyola, Shankaracharya and many others. They share a
> common belief that the fundamental nature of reality is outside language;
> that language splits things up into parts while the true nature of reality
> is undivided. Zen, which is a mystic religion, argues that the illusion of
> dividedness can be overcome by meditation. The Native American Church
argues
> that peyote can force-feed a mystic understanding upon those who were
> normally resistant to it,..." LILA (ch 5)
>
> Sam said:
> The common lapse into equating dynamic quality with God (or tao) reflects
> cultural biases in favour of innovation and "progress" rather than
Pirsig's
> own thought, IMHO. What makes a DQ innovation positive rather than
negative
> is precisely its integration with static patterns - so DQ and SQ are yoked
> together like yin and yang. Pirsig preserves that balance. Many
contributors
> do not - again, IMHO ;-)
>
> dmb says:
> Hmmm. It seems you changed the subject from religion to evolution. Aren't
we
> talking about quality religions? We're taljing about an profound
experience
> of union, not the belief in progress. (Interesting topic for another
thread,
> perhaps)
>
> "Whatever nuance the language of union is given, if there is to be talk of
> mysticism, some sort of deep union must be involved. It perhaps cannot be
> emphasized enough that to speak of mysticism is to speak of an EXPERIENCE
of
> union and not merely speculations about union." (Guidebook to ZAMM P27)
>
> dmb continues:
> If there is a Western cultural bias with respect to religious mysticism,
and
> there most certainly is, it is almost wholly negative if not completely
> forgotten. This problem is not restricted to religion either. Its bigger
> than than. SOM intellect rejects mysticism with even more vigor than the
> churches, but that doesn't relieve the churches of the same tendency.
>
> Pirsig:
> "Phaedrus saw nothing wrong with this ritualistic religion as long as the
> rituals are seen as merely a static portrayal of Dynamic Quality, a
> sign-post which allows socially pattern-dominated people to see Dynamic
> Quality. The danger has always been that the rituals, the static patterns,
> are mistaken for what they merely represent and are allowed to destroy the
> Dynamic Quality they were originally intended to preserve."
>
> Pirsig:
> "In all religions bishops tend to gild Dynamic Quality with all sorts of
> static interpretations because their cultures require it. But these
> interpretations become like golden vines that cling to a tree, shut out
its
> sunlight and eventually strangle it."
>
> From C.G. Jung's MEMORIES, DREAMS, REFLECTIONS:
> "I was equally sure that none of the theologians I knew had ever seen "the
> light that shineth in the darkness" with his own eyes, for if they had
they
> would not have been able to teach a "theological religion," which seemed
> quite inadequate to me, since there was nothing to do with it but believe
it
> without hope. This is what my father (a Reformed pastor) had tried
valiantly
> to do and had run aground. .. I recognized that this celebrated faith of
his
> had played a deadly trick on him, and not only on him but on most of the
> cultivated and serious people I knew. The arch sin of faith, it seemed to
> me, was that it forestalled experience."
>
> Matthew Fox The Coming of the Cosmic Christ:
> "The Christian West was too alienated from its own mystical tradition to
> resist this secular effort to eliminate a living cosmology, symbolized
> religiously by the Cosmic Christ. Augustine's theology, which heavily
> influenced the philosophy of Descrates, has no Cosmic Christ. Augustine's
> preoccupation with human guilt and salvaltion offered no resistance ..."
>
> Thanks,
> dmb
>
>
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