From: Platt Holden (pholden@sc.rr.com)
Date: Tue Apr 06 2004 - 13:10:06 BST
Hi Steve Peterson,
First, apologies for mixing up the Steve P. of comcast. net with the Steve
P. of verizon.net.
> >> Do you support gay marriage?
> >
> > No.
>
> That's what I thought. Do you support a Constitutional amendment
> banning gay marriage?
Yes.
> I'm not at all surprised by your view, but it seems contradictory to
> your claim of support for the individual over the collective. That's
> why I brought it up.
I'm glad you brought it up because it illustrates my contention that the
'war' between the social and intellectual levels is between the collective
and the individual.
> You said: "The state wants its citizens to behave in certain,
> predictable ways by
> following its rituals, laws and mores. For the state to survive (or any
> group for that matter) it must lay down rules and practices governing
> relations among individuals in the group. Thus, the social level's highest
> morality is static conformity."
>
> I agree. A great example is society's disdain for homosexuality. The state
> would love to see nice ordered male/female roles and today we see the state
> trying to lay down rules and practices governing sexual relations to that
> end.
I don't follow you. What rules and practices governing sexual relations is
the state laying down? As far as I know. the state doesn't prevent gay
couples from having sexual relations. I assume most gay couples will have
sex whether they have a marriage license or not.
> You also said: "The individual by contrast, while recognizing the
> necessary role of the
> state, wants to be recognized as unique human being and not just another
> cog in a machine. She wants to be the means to her own ends, not the ends
> of others. Most of of all, she wants to be free to act and speak according
> to dictates of her own intellect, not the dictates of politically correct
> thought imposed by the state."
>
> Again, I strongly agree. The homosexual does not accept society's
> purpose for her of producing new citizens nor should any individual
> accept being the means to society's ends.
Here's where the 'war' begins. Society often uses individuals as means to its
ends. The welfare state is an example where some are coerced to support
others. The draft is another example. The state must survive for higher levels
to evolve.
> She wants to be free to act and
> speak according to the dictates of her own intellect. I can understand
> that "the state isn't obligated to grant benefits to individuals whose
> choice of partners hinders procreation on which the state depends for its
> survival," but I don't see why individuals shouldn't support the state
> extending rights (actually, in this case, to not take away rights) to
> others since we both see rights as protections of the individual from the
> dictates imposed by the state.
How is a marriage license protection from state dictates?
> Do you think that homosexuality is immoral?
At the biological level, yes. At the social level, only to the extent it
discourages procreation and the beneficial relationship of having a
father/mother responsible for children's welfare. At the intellectual
level, no.
> The simple answer that most conservatives give for this type of
> question is that it is simply wrong. It just is. Or that the Bible
> says it's wrong or my church says its wrong or God says it's wrong.
> These are simple uncontorted answers but their simplicity is their only
> virtue.
My 'contortions' remark was misdirected to the wrong Steve P. Sorry.
As for moral decisions, most people (not just conservatives) give simple
answers like it's simply wrong, or everybody says so, or do unto others,
etc. Pirsig has given us a rational structure on which to base moral
decisions as opposed to God's edicts or secular emotional hand-wringing.
Regards,
Platt
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