From: David Morey (us@divadeus.freeserve.co.uk)
Date: Mon Apr 26 2004 - 20:33:53 BST
Platt: The question is do the patterns exist independently of perception?
Steve: No. I think the word pattern presupposes perception. That it why I
looked it up. I was concerned about that, but this is not SOM
perception since it is this patterning (and DQing) that itself is
awareness which creates subjects and objects as patterns.
DM:Yes and no to Platt's question, and to Steve's answer.
The possibility of experiencing a world does depend on patterns.
Most of these patterns are pre-intellectual. EG we experience the pattern
'red' in colour for many different sorts of experience: red flowers, red
sky, etc.
This expreience of redness is a non-linguistic quality, the linguistic use
of the
word 'red' helps to enhance and pick out and universalise this redness.
Is there 'redness' as a pattern without experience. Well science says
yes in terms of certain wave lengths of light being reflected from these
surfaces.
This is how dq/man uses language and intellect to construct the world/cosmos
(the biggest pattern of them all). Without such intellectual DQ there is no
world.
You only have to think of the world that existed for man when the Earth was
seen as flat, or at the centre of the cosmos. Having a world is something
that is
only true of intellectual human beings. Yet we can also tell ourselves the
abstract story of
how the patterning of the cosmos has brought about the human intellectual
level.
The capacity for patterning/SQ has to be seen as independent of human
consciouness
or else we have no means of explaining human conscious intellectual
perceptual knowledge
and creative activity.
regards
David M
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Peterson" <peterson.steve@verizon.net>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Monday, April 26, 2004 7:01 PM
Subject: Re: MD The Individual Level
> >
> Hi Platt,
>
> See my response for DMB on the stuff you quoted from him.
>
>
> > P:
> >>> The
> >>> intellectual level is dominated by individuals who value the
> >>> patterns of
> >>> their independent thoughts more than unthinking conformity to social
> >>> patterns. That's another reason why I think a better name for the
> >>> intellectual level would be the Individual Level.
> >
> > S:
> >> The intellectual level is not dominated by individuals since
> >> individuals are identified or defined by the patterns that they
> >> participate in. (Lila doesn't have Quality. Quality has Lila.)
> >
> > Let's be clear that when I refer to individuals I'm talking about human
> > beings, not parts of wholes. Both the social and intellectual levels,
> > the
> > subjective realms, consist of human beings, all of whom are made up of
> > the
> > four levels plus the capacity to respond to DQ.
>
> I'm lost. You are saying that the social and intellectual levels
> consists of human beings which consist of the social and intellectual
> levels?
>
> >
> >> However, the intellectual level is built on the social level as every
> >> level
> >> is built upon the levels below, but to call the intellectual level the
> >> individual level since it is built on individual human beings would
> >> be like
> >> calling the social level the animal level since it is built upon
> >> animals
> >> (homo sapiens) and calling the biological level the molecular level
> >> since
> >> it built on molecules.
> >
> > The reason to call it the individual level is as I've described--a
> > level
> > dominated by individuals who value the patterns of their independent
> > thoughts more than unthinking conformity to social patterns.
>
> Did you not follow my objection above or did you just not want to
> respond to it? There's never any obligation to answer, of course.
>
> >
> >>> Patterns are 'structures of perception?' Interesting. Please
> >>> elaborate.
> >
> >> That is the most appropriate dictionary definition I could find. I
> >> imagine Pirsig would be even more irritated in being asked what a
> >> pattern is than he was about being asked what intellect is.
> >
> >> n 1: a perceptual structure; "the composition presents problems for
> >> students of musical form"; "a visual pattern must include not only
> >> objects but the spaces between them" [syn: form, shape] > The first
> >> one
> >> "perceptual structure" seems to fit best. What do you
> >> think?
> >
> > Not a particularly helpful definition.
>
> I know. I think the issue is well worth discussing.
>
> > I guess that patterns as
> > 'perceptual structures' might have something to do with those cultural
> > glasses we all have by which we make sense of the data of experience.
>
> I agree, but I think they also have to do with our biological make-up.
> I think ZAMM's Quality as pre-intellectual awareness translates into
> the MOQ's static-dynamic split of Quality as unpatterned awareness
> which then becomes manifest as (DQ or) four different types of
> perceptual structures, not just intellectual awareness. For example,
> getting your ass off a hot stove is pre-intellectual, but not
> pre-biological.
>
> > The
> > question is do the patterns exist independently of perception?
>
> No. I think the word pattern presupposes perception. That it why I
> looked it up. I was concerned about that, but this is not SOM
> perception since it is this patterning (and DQing) that itself is
> awareness which creates subjects and objects as patterns.
>
> >
> >> I mean I usually think without thinking of
> >> myself thinking. I don't see any great mystery in "disembodied
> >> intellect"
> >> by calling intellectual patterns patterns of thought.
> >
> > I think it's a fundamental error to disconnect humans from thoughts,
> > just
> > as it's wrong to disconnect humans from the social and intellectual
> > levels. It's abstract thinking without regard for human individuals
> > that
> > accounts for the slaughter of millions by totalitarian governments.
>
> You are arguing that what I say is false because of what you think are
> the social consequences of what I'm saying. Also, I still don't
> understand why you think I am disconnecting humans from thoughts. I'm
> just saying that humans aren't thoughts and thoughts aren't humans.
> Isn't that right, or are we arguing the issue of whether humans have
> thoughts or thoughts have humans?
>
> >>> Having high regard for individuals is an intellectual
> >>> pattern--freedom of
> >>> speech, of religion, trial by jury, one man one vote, etc.
> >
> >> That's not what I mean. I'm saying that a statement is true or false
> >> regardless of who is saying it.
> >
> > And I'm saying that a statement is neither true or false unless
> > somebody
> > says it.
> >
> ...or at least thinks it. No one has ever said anything to the
> contrary.
>
> Regards,
> Steve
>
>
>
>
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