From: InfoPro Consulting: Mark Heyman (markheyman@infoproconsulting.com)
Date: Mon May 10 2004 - 21:40:20 BST
Sigh.
>msh said:
Well, viruses are interesting because they are neither inanimate nor
living; they require a host for a survival and are sort of "midway
between brute matter and living organism," says Wolfhard Weidel.
Let's go with a microbe, then we're definitely among the living. But,
sure, there is a distinction, just not a MORAL distinction, to the
extent that one is more valuable than another.
ph said:
Am I to understand that you believe there's no moral distinction
between the polio virus and a cow, or that the smallpox germ is as
valuable as my cat and should be treated with the same kindness?
Seems to me you've taken your worship of equality to an immoral, not
to say irrational, extreme. No need to repeat what Pirsig says about
the moral status of germs.
msh says:
All I can do is repeat myself, and encourage Platt to read more
carefully. "But, sure, there is a distinction, just not a MORAL
distinction, to the extent that one is more valuable than another."
That is to say, IMO, it is NOT OK for one life form to destroy
another unless responding to a reasonably perceived threat (RPT). A
smallpox germ qualifies as an RPT to humans.
ph said: It's not surprising to me that leftists like you and DMB
praise Zinn because his narrative thread is straight from the first
line of the Communist Manifesto, "The history all hitherto existing
societies is the history of class struggle."
msh says:
"When you give food to the poor, they call you a saint. When you ask
why the poor have no food, they call you a communist." - Archbishop
Helder Camara, Brazilian liberation theologist
ph continued:
To Zinn, greed and profit were the motivating factors behind every
U.S. war, the result of base motives of the "ruling class."
msh:
More accurately, Zinn might argue (as would I) that ruling class
greed for power and profit are motivating factors behind every war,
no matter who the aggressor. Further, the same factors on BOTH sides
of any conflict seem to impede diplomatic resolution of differences,
sometimes even encouraging an escalation of violence.
ph said:
Zinn even goes so far as to blame America, not Japan, for the attack
on Pearl Harbor. In other words, the devil made them do it.
msh says:
Of course, Zinn says no such thing.
earlier, dmb said:
I think the USA, for example, has been trying to live up to those
ideals with only limited success, but its not so limited as to
warrant destruction, simply further improvement.
and msh responded:
Well, this depends on what you mean by USA. If you mean the general
population of the USA, people who have worked hard for all the social
progress that's been attained, then I agree. But the US government,
as the shadow cast by big business and power elites (to paraphrase
Dewey) has shown little interest in living up to those ideals,
particularly as they might be applied in foreign affairs.
ph said:
Let us join with Howard Zinn, Noam Chomsky, Gore Vidal, Bill Moyers
and Michael Moore in their never-ending song of "America Sucks."
msh:
Of course all of these people would claim, and have repeatedly, that
America in many respects, particularly in terms of individual
freedoms, is perhaps the greatest country on earth. What has this to
do with criticizing American policy, domestic and foreign, when one
is in disagreement with it?
msh said:
Nevertheless, skepticism is warranted whenever someone is advocating
violence in the name of human rights.
ph asked:
Does you skepticism apply to those who advocate violence against
nations who support free markets and free trade?
msh says:
Absolutely. Let me know when you find a nation that truly supports
free markets and free trade, then we'll be able to analyze whether
free markets and free trade are the highest quality way of organizing
an economy.
msh said:
If a nation violates, suppresses, destroys, or
in any other way impedes or diminishes even a single person's chance
for equality with his fellow beings, it is MORALLY IMPERATIVE that
that corrupted nation be destroyed. Tough but true words, I think.
ph said:
You've just given moral justification for invading Iraq. Thanks.
msh says:
Or at least a moral justification for allowing Iraqis to determine
for themselves, using the MOQ if they like, what kind of country
they'd like to create. Saddam Hussein didn't become a monstrous,
murderous dictator just over the last decade or so, you know. He was
always that way, even when he was the darling of American presidents.
And there had always been a large segment of the Iraqi population
that, literally, risked life and limb to oppose him. This segment
was given NO support by American policy makers during Hussein's worst
atrocities, just as they are given NO voice now. Believe me, the
last thing American policy makers want in Iraq is a Democracy.
They're not even crazy about it here, to the extent that it exists.
ph said:
As I pointed out, it seems to be your belief that what's to blame for
man's inability to create heaven on earth is the old Marxist idea of
class struggle--the powerless little people as helpless tools of big
business and power elites.
msh says:
Of course powerful elites have been oppressing the less powerful for
their own advantage, for countless centuries. Long before Marx began
thinking about it. Not sure I get the point, unless it's just easier
to attack a label.
ph said:
I guess the demise of the Soviet Union exposing the fallacy of such
thinking made no impression at all. Oh well.
msh says:
This just reveals a woefully inadequate understanding of the demise
of the Soviet Union, which, by the way, was celebrated by all the
writers, Chomsky, Zinn, Vidal, you revile but don't read, evidently.
Best,
Mark Heyman
-- InfoPro Consulting - The Professional Information Processors Custom Software Solutions for Windows, PDAs, and the Web Since 1983 Web Site: http://www.infoproconsulting.com "Thought is only a flash between two long nights, but this flash is everything." -- Henri Poincare' MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org Mail Archives: Aug '98 - Oct '02 - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/ Nov '02 Onward - http://www.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/summary.html MD Queries - horse@darkstar.uk.net To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at: http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
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