From: Platt Holden (pholden@sc.rr.com)
Date: Mon May 10 2004 - 18:43:12 BST
Hi Dave H, DMB:
> dmb said:
> Surely there is a distinction to be made between an elephant and a
> virus, etc.
>
> msh says:
> Well, viruses are interesting because they are neither inanimate nor
> living; they require a host for a survival and are sort of "midway
> between brute matter and living organism," says Wolfhard Weidel.
> Let's go with a microbe, then we're definitely among the living. But, sure,
> there is a distinction, just not a MORAL distinction, to the extent that
> one is more valuable than another.
Am I to understand that you believe there's no moral distinction between
the polio virus and a cow, or that the smallpox germ is as valuable as my
cat and should be treated with the same kindness? Seems to me you've
taken your worship of equality to an immoral, not to say irrational,
extreme. No need to repeat what Pirsig says about the moral status of
germs.
> dmb said:
> I'm a Zinn fan and all, but I think you've underestimated the
> Abolitionist cause in this view.
>
> msh says:
> You're right. I'm afraid I too am guilty of oversimplification to
> make my point about wars in general. And I don't want to imply that
> Zinn is guilty of the same oversimplification. He sees the
> abolitionist cause has having more influence than I've allowed.
It's not surprising to me that leftists like you and DMB praise Zinn
because his narrative thread is straight from the first line of the
Communist Manifesto, "The history all hitherto existing societies is the
history of class struggle." To Zinn, greed and profit were the motivating
factors behind every U.S. war, the result of base motives of the "ruling
class." Zinn even goes so far as to blame America, not Japan, for the
attack on Pearl Harbor. In other words, the devil made them do it.
Yes, by all means let us degrade the Founding Fathers, the "ruling class"
who created a Constitution that guarantees the ". . . moral codes that
established the supremacy of the intellectual order over the -social order-
democracy, trial by jury, freedom of speech, freedom of the press." (Lila,
13). Let us join with Howard Zinn, Noam Chomsky, Gore Vidal, Bill Moyers
and Michael Moore in their never-ending song of "America Sucks."
> Nevertheless, skepticism is warranted whenever someone is advocating
> violence in the name of human rights.
Does you skepticism apply to those who advocate violence against nations
who support free markets and free trade?
> Nothing much to disagree with here. I'll buy it off the rack. I
> particularly like the phrase "the principle of human equality is an
> even higher form [of moral evolution] than a nation." I mentioned
> this in my previous post. Working within the MOQ, such words become
> heavy with meaning: If a nation violates, suppresses, destroys, or
> in any other way impedes or diminishes even a single person's chance
> for equality with his fellow beings, it is MORALLY IMPERATIVE that
> that corrupted nation be destroyed. Tough but true words, I think.
You've just given moral justification for invading Iraq. Thanks.
> dmb continued:
> I think the USA, for example, has been trying to live up to those
> ideals with only limited success, but its not so limited as to
> warrant destruction, simply further improvement.
>
> msh says:
> Well, this depends on what you mean by USA. If you mean the general
> population of the USA, people who have worked hard for all the social
> progress that's been attained, then I agree. But the US government, as the
> shadow cast by big business and power elites (to paraphrase Dewey) has
> shown little interest in living up to those ideals, particularly as they
> might be applied in foreign affairs.
As I pointed out, it seems to be your belief that what's to blame for
man's inability to create heaven on earth is the old Marxist idea of class
struggle--the powerless little people as helpless tools of big business
and power elites. I guess the demise of the Soviet Union exposing the
fallacy of such thinking made no impression at all. Oh well.
Best,
Platt
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