From: Platt Holden (pholden@sc.rr.com)
Date: Thu May 13 2004 - 19:27:41 BST
Dear Wim,
> Dear Platt,
>
> You wrote 12 May 2004 20:26:02 -0400:
> 'I didn't need a poll to confirm what from my experience I already knew.'
> I'm glad the 59% is overestimated, but what DO you know from your
> experience about the irrationality of Americans?
In my experience Americans are no more or less rational than people in
other Western nations. Your appear to suggest that the less one harbor
religious beliefs the more rational he is. Maybe, maybe not. It depends on
what religious beliefs one holds and how one determines what is rational
and what is not. If reason is based the premises of SOM, then Pirsig has
plenty reasons to criticize rational thinking, as you know well.
> I'm not used to bashing
> the USA (only to have different political opinions from the average
> American as -but to a lesser degree- from the average European). If I
> would, I wouldn't have been so shocked by this statistic.
I apologize for suggesting anything different.
> What has this to do with the MoQ? Well, I thought to first establish some
> intersubjective truth (agreement on interpretation of experience) before
> bringing that up, knowing that both you and David B. will probably disagree
> with me: For me both rational and irrational thinking occurs at the 4th
> level (to the extent that it is symbolic, and if interpreting Revelations
> isn't symbolic, nothing is).
Irrational thinking occurs at the Intellectual Level? I always thought
that Pirsig defines the fourth level by its rationality. I think it's very
strange to think of the fourth level as the home of irrational (some
religious) beliefs.
> I'm usually happy to follow Wilber-like
> schedules as description of evolution of 4th level patterns of values
> (evolution within that level). Rational thinking is more advanced than
> irrational thinking (and is superseded again by post-rational thinking,
> which integrates emotion, intuition and sensory perception).
Again, I don't think irrational thinking belongs in the fourth level,
Wilber notwithstanding. As for Wilber's 'post-rational thinking," that' s
just pie-in-the-sky stuff where we all sit in a circle, hold hands and
sing Kum By Ya to celebrate a New Age religion, no different in spirit
that "Jesus loves me, yes I know, because the bible (or in Wilber's case,
mystic meditation) tells me so."
> In my adapted
> version of the MoQ (compared to Pirsig) I would prefer to call the 4th
> level 'symbolic' (refering to his definition of it in 'Lila's child') and
> the 3th level 'habitual'. It is my interpretation of the 3th level that
> differs most from Pirsig's one, I think. This level (consisting of patterns
> of behaviour that are neither latched in the genes nor premeditatedly
> performed) isn't involved when people formulate/motivate their
> ideas/actions rationally or irrationally.
By contrast, I think the third level is dominated by more or less
automatic human behavior but not completely without thinking or behavior
motivated by mindful symbolic manipulation. Organized religion is a
shining example of symbolism over substance (to coin a phrase). But more
than that, the biological energy the Giant sucks up from humans to attain
it's own ends includes brainpower. Otherwise, New York City could never
have been built.
Thanks for bringing Pirsig into the discussion.
Best regards,
Platt
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