From: Mark Steven Heyman (markheyman@infoproconsulting.com)
Date: Thu May 27 2004 - 05:00:25 BST
On 26 May 2004 at 18:12, David Morey wrote:
msh said:
A great topic: MOQ and The Moral Evolution of Society.
dm said:
Yes, I would like to talk about this. Do we want to talk about
how current society fails to attain the highest levels of freedom
possible, or how we would see a more free society operating.
msh says:
I think these two will work together. We can and should identify
freedom related problems within society; and we should, if we can,
suggest ways in which such problems might be eliminated. This
process will help us to sketch the outline of a morally more advanced
society.
Sometimes we may identify problems for which we have no immediate
solution. This does not mean that there is none, and that we should
just accept the problem as insolvable and shut up about it. IMO,
it's vitally important to keep such problems on the back burner, and
address them as new ideas about them bubble up.
dm said:
Also there is the problem of how to get from where we are to a more
free society and culture.
msh says:
Yeah. This can be the gumption buster. Fortunately, we don't have
to worry about it till we have a problem, or set of related problems,
or our entire vision, more or less well-defined. Then all sorts of
practical issues come into play. If we're looking to change a law,
we need to seek the support of people who are experienced with the
law-changing process. We'd need to anticipate, identify, and
evaluate sources of resistance to our change of law; and this would
involve research and analysis. We'd need public support for our
change of law, and this would involve outreach and education.
All of this makes up the HARD PART. It means dropping out of the
ivory tower of abstract speculation and hitting the sometimes mean
and dirty streets. But worrying about this part before we've even
identified the problems would be a major gumption trap for sure. So
let's not worry about it...yet.
First, I think we need a first approximation of what a moral society
might be like. I've taken a stab at this before, so let me paste the
following for everyone's consideration, modification, approval or
rejection:
"Societal institutions that restrict or impede the free flow and
interaction of ideas are immoral, especially if such ideas are
critical of existing institutions. It is immoral for institutions to
in any way restrict individual freedom to act and react in response
to biological drives, or in response to other institutions, or in
response to the free interchange of ideas, unless such activity
threatens morally superior institutions or can be shown to eliminate
or restrict such freedom for others."
I know it's a mouthful, but it's a stab. If we can agree upon this
or some other MOQ definition of "moral society," and we can agree to
speak of morality (and its modifiers "good", "better", "less",
"worse", "high", "low", etc) only in this sense, rather than in a
religious or legal sense, then I think we can save a lot of time and
confusion.
Finally for tonight, cause I'm whipped, we should try to agree on
some first principles. Here's one, pasted from an earlier message,
for your consideration, modification, comments. Feel free to add
your own.
FP1) If a societal institution can be shown to immorally restrict or
impede individual freedom, then that institution must be adequately
modified, or dismantled.
I'd like to end by throwing out a few examples of what might be
considered immoral institutions (ii), for your qualification and
comment, of course. Again, add your own.
ii1) A law against smoking crack
ii2) A law against assisted suicide
ii3) A law against same sex marriages
ii4) Laws granting human rights to corporations
ii5) Corporations themselves
ii6) Capital punishment
ii7) Prisoner torture for information
ii8) Use of public airwaves for private profit
ii9) Selling life-saving medical services for private profit
ii10) Selling life-sustaining services for private profit
(Water, air, subsistence food, clothing, shelter)
Anyway, I don't know where this thread will lead us, but I'm looking
forward to any and all constructive interactions.
Best,
Mark Heyman
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