From: Platt Holden (pholden@sc.rr.com)
Date: Mon May 31 2004 - 22:33:16 BST
Hi David M,
> Interesting quote. Beginning with quality=experience=reality
> where would we start talking about consciousness?
Wouldn't Pirsig say that all talk begins after Quality=experience=reality,
that Quality always comes first? I'm really not sure what your question is
driving at.
> I think we need to add to quality/experience/reality the openness
> that it contains, the possibilities that it foretells.
I agree the future is not completely predictable if that's what you mean.
> Consciousness
> is surely about having to act, to make decisions, to chose between
> the alternative possibilities that are present within our experience.
I don't think consciousness is limited just to "our experience." Many have
agreed on this site that consciousness extends all the way down the
evolutionary scale to electrons.
> We are aware of the static surround/environment and the open/dynamic future at
> the same time. We are forced to choose, I can stay sitting or I can stand up,
> these are 2 of my immediate possibilities, when I am aware of choice I am
> conscious. Now if I set off to walk to my sister's house I have made up my
> mind. I do not have to keep deciding to put one foot in front of the other to
> get there, I unconsciously let my feet do the wlaking for themselves, but if I
> suddenly decide to think about it, (so that thinking = awareness of
> possibility) I may reconsider and go for something to eat instead. I think
> this is how it fits in. This sort of focus on the need for decision in
> experience is what Sartre is rather good at describing. What do you think?
Decision making seems to be a characteristic of humans as opposed to lower
life forms who are born with the tools and instincts necessary for survival.
Man, however, must use his rational capabilities to survive., his capacity to
imagine the future, to symbolize, to connect this and that in a cause/effect
relationship. Since life is a high value, man's decisions are moral acts and
fit perfectly with the MOQ where morals are the whole thing. (Decisions, of
course, can be of either high or low quality, or in between.)
So while I don't connect consciousness exclusively with decision-making
ability, it surely plays a vital role in the consciousness of us humans. When
we become paralyzed to the extent we can't make up our minds, we're
candidates for the funny farm.
Further thoughts?
Regards,
Platt
>
> regards
> David M
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Platt Holden" <pholden@sc.rr.com>
> To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
> Sent: Monday, May 31, 2004 2:08 PM
> Subject: Re: MD MOQ and The Moral Evolution of Society.
>
>
> > Hi David M,
> >
> > > Yes, that's OK. Perhaps I am thinking
> > > less that DQ is more complex, but its activity
> > > becomes more complex, and as DQ is an activity
> > > I see it as making a necessary appearance within
> > > what we call consciousness, i.e. I cannot imagine
> > > consciousness in an exclusively SQ context. Can you?
> > > Rather that would be unconsciousness would it not?
> >
> > When you bring up consciousness you raise a huge mystery that our best SOM
> > scientists haven't a clue about. Oh, there have been stabs at explaining
> it
> > by such people as philosopher Daniel C. Dennett and physicist Roger
> Penrose.
> > And, there's a Center for Consciousness at the University of Arizona
> devoted
> > to unravelling the mystery, with less than stellar success. So whether
> > consciousness is related in some way to DQ I couldn't say except that the
> > meaning of the word does bear a close resemblance to words that Pirsig
> uses
> > to describe reality such as "experience," "awareness" and "dim
> apprehension."
> > (How can there be "experience" without consciousness?)
> >
> > But, I think Pirsig would deny a close relationship between consciousness
> and
> > DQ. For him consciousness is linked to mind which, in order to function,
> > creates dualities such as DQ/SQ and Subject/Object. Prior to that split
> > demanded by the intellect is Quality. Only secondarily can we talk about
> > consciousness and unconsciousness or more simply, the two states of awake
> and
> > asleep.
> >
> > A Pirsig quote that supports this view is as follows:
> >
> > "In this basic flux of experience, the distinctions of reflective thought,
> > such as those between consciousness and content, subject and object, mind
> and
> > matter, have not yet emerged in the forms which we make them. Pure
> experience
> > cannot be called either physical or psychical: it logically precedes this
> > distinction." (Lila, 29)
> >
> > What do you think?
> >
> > Regards,
> > Platt
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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