From: David Morey (us@divadeus.freeserve.co.uk)
Date: Mon Jun 07 2004 - 19:32:05 BST
Hi folks
when we look at the morality of
states we need to look at whether
repressive and authoritarian and policing
measures are used to deal with problems in
a necessary and restrained manner.
Clearly, countries like the USSR have used
their authority and power in quite unnecessary
and bloody ways. The USA has shown great
restraint with respect to the over use of its
military powers but many mistakes have also
been made within a good overall record.
USA has clearly been the most dynamic/evolving
society ever seen on earth. Both the USA and USSR
have been on occasions immoral, Stalin spectacularly so
-but was that due to communism or Stalin's personality?
Also USA has had great internal drug/crime/poverty problems.
A clear moral failure with respect to the evolution of many
individuals and groups in the USA in social terms. Intellectual success?
They have both had these but perhaps do not compare that well with
the Greeks or India or even Germany? In fact USSR citizens were
probably better educated and cultured than USA citizens before the fall
of ciommunism. And here we are now. No more
communism, and the USA very powerful. But is the USA paradise?
Has capitalism delivered as much productive power and technology as
it can, i.e. only making marginal improvements from now on?
Will it keep growing the economy? probably not. All it seems to do now
is protect inequality for the benefit of people that hardly seem to deserve
it,
i.e. what do they deliver? Also what use is great wealth? A cheap car is
as good at getting from a to b as an expensive one, same for telling the
time
with an expensive watch. The celebrity thing seems to be a form of
decadence, i.e. instead of evolving towards the intellectual level we are
stuck on the social level and exagerate it excessively, particularly in USA.
The problem is one of values perhaps, to return to Pirsig. Where will this
change
of values come from. Well often you need to clear the field before planting
new
crops, perhaps the clearing created by science was the death of god, perhaps
the new crops will be planted in this currently very empty spiritual field.
USA/USSR good or bad:
I suggest that these things are far from black and white.
regards
David M
----- Original Message -----
From: "Wim Nusselder" <wim.nusselder@antenna.nl>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Monday, June 07, 2004 7:29 AM
Subject: Re: MD MOQ and The Moral Evolution of Society.
> Dear Platt,
>
> I wrote 5 Jun 2004 07:09:30 +0200:
> 'From a point of view of assessing societies it is the freedom they allow
at
> a higher level (including freedom to dismantly those justifications...)
that
> determines their relative morality.'
>
> You provided a supportive quote from Pirsig and added 5 Jun 2004
> 15:35:03 -0400:
> 'This also supports the moral validity of Reagan's "Evil Empire" and
Bush's
> "Axis of Evil."'
>
> Sure. The Soviet 'empire' (Soviet Union plus supported communist regimes
> elsewhere) was a less moral society than its capitalist competitor. Iraq
> under Saddam, Iran and North-Korea are far less moral parts of the present
> world society than the alternatives we would like to see there. They
> made/make excessive use of policemen, soldiers and guns to repress (what
> they perceive as) lower quality parts of their society (and what are in
part
> attempts to reform their societies in a more moral direction) compared to
> more moral competitors/alternatives. The defining 'instrument of
> conversation between society and biology' in capitalist society is
economic
> dependence. Capitalist society is therefore more moral than state-run
> society, regardless of the (communist, Baathist, Shiite Islamist or
> leadership worshipping) ideology used as an additional secondary
'instrument
> of conversation between society and biology'.
>
> I guess this to be quite acceptable for you (to the extent that you
> understand what I mean and pardon me for my slight disagreement with
Pirsig
> on 'the instrument of conversation between society and biology'). Our
> disagreement starts when I want to distinguish between the relative
morality
> of communist society (on the social level) and the relative morality
> communist ideology (on the intellectual level) and when we are going to
> discuss how to change less moral societies to the better.
>
> With friendly greetings,
>
> Wim
>
>
>
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