From: Horse (horse@darkstar.uk.net)
Date: Mon Jun 07 2004 - 20:19:13 BST
Hi Platt, Mark Jon and others
The main reason for mentioning Walesa and Gorbachev was to bring an MoQ
perspective into this discussion. See below
On 6 Jun 2004 at 21:11, Platt Holden wrote:
> Hi Horse,
>
> Great to hear from you! Please butt in more often.
>
> > Hope you don't mind me butting in here but there seems to be a couple of
> > names missing from this conversation which you might like to consider.
> >
> > Lech Walesa
> > Mikhail Gorbachev
> >
> > Without these two there would have been no dismantling of the Soviet bloc
> > and probably no end to the cold war for many years - if at all. Reagan
> > played his part but he would have gotten nowhere without the efforts of the
> > aforementioned.
>
> As long as we're adding contributors to the downfall of Communism in
> Russia, we ought to add
>
> Margaret Thatcher
> Helmut Kohl
>
> But it was Reagan's build up of U.S. military might and the Soviet's
> inability to respond in kind that was the major factor in bringing down
> the Evil Empire, to the everlasting gratitude of free peoples everywhere.
I think that Reagan, Thatcher and Kohl were little more than bit players in the events of
the late 80's with regard to the USSR. Along with Reagan and the majority of other
'world leaders' at the time they were just carrying on the same old same old. The military
build up by the US and Europe, increasing the number of Nukes to insane levels,
conflict by proxy etc. was the same old behaviour that had been continuing for the
previous 30 to 40 years. The USSR was quite capable of matching (or bluffing - it makes
little difference) this behaviour. In other words a static latching of mainly biological and
social patterns.
Walesa's role in the Polish trade union Solidarity (which he helped to found and was the
first independent trade union in the Soviet bloc) was crucial in bringing about strikes and
civil unrest which led directly to the toppling of Jaruzelski's government. Which in turn
led to the creation of a non-communist Polish government - a not inconsiderable feat.
Walesa had spent time in jail for his activities, was beaten up on several occasions and
generally suffered for his beliefs and actions - none of which involved or encouraged
violent action.But it was the Polish people, led by Walesa, that brought this about, not
the US or the UK or Germay or France etc. This was to be repeated in different regions
throughout the Soviet Union and it is this which directly caused the fall of communism.
The build up of weapons alone would have led only to war - probably nuclear war.
At the same time as this was going on Gorbachev had instituted changes in Soviet
society (Glasnost) that not only enabled and encouraged criticism of communist
institutions but meant that there would be no military intervention to sustain dependent
states such as Poland. He also introduced Perestroika with all the economic changes
and reforms that this brought about - most of which, sadly, were destroyed by the
drunken fool Yeltsin. Strangely enough it was Yelsin who was backed by the US, the
UK, Germany and France and not Gorbachev - probably because Yeltsin could be more
easily 'influenced' than Gorbachev. Gorbachev had a reputation for being extremely
intelligent and independent and probably scared the holy bejesus out of the likes of
Reagan, Thatcher and Kohl.
The main point here is that it was the people of the Soviet Union that were responsible
for the events of the late 1980's. This is the real reason for the increase in the number of
democracies over the last few years. There was no need for an invasion by foreign
powers to install democracy - it happened because the Soviet people wanted it. What a
shame we can't learn from the best lessons of the past.
So bury the tribal elders (Reagan, Thatcher et. al.) with all the Social level ceremony
they deserve then forget them, 'cause if you're looking for a couple of true Brujo's then
look no further than Walesa and Gorbachev. These two brought about the sort of
change within their (and our) societies unseen for many years.
OK - now I'll shut up and go back to sleep :)
Horse
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