From: Platt Holden (pholden@sc.rr.com)
Date: Fri Jun 18 2004 - 13:09:41 BST
Dear Wim,
You wrote:
> Pirsig used "conversation" as an ironic metaphor: pointing a gun at a
> criminal to make him behave is not exactly what I would call "conversation"
> either. Pirsig's point was that the only way to induce bio-criminals to go
> along with social patterns of value is by force. I would rather about
> 'people participating in lower quality social patterns of value' insteat of
> 'bio-criminals' and I agree that convincing them to participate in higher
> quality social patterns of value usually doesn't work. Partly because the
> (low quality) social patterns of value they participate in are too stable
> and versatile (and being social: too slow to change compared to
> intellectual patterns of value) and resist change by patterns of value from
> other levels. Partly because social patterns of value based on convictions
> (belonging to my fourth type of society as described in 'economics of want
> and greed') differ too much from theirs (belonging to my first and second
> types of society). The most effective way of inducing people to participate
> in higher quality social patterns of value is by making them experience
> only slightly higher quality ones, ones that don't differ too much from the
> ones they already participate in and 'understand'. So, military and police
> can be the best way to deal with the social patterns of value of my first
> type of society or the lower quality ones that belong to their own (second)
> type of society (e.g. Mafia-like criminals, groups of brigands or terrorist
> organisations without a political strategy).
Your "types" of society raise a question: Do I detect a claim to improve
on Pirsig's ideas? :-)
> With "biological restrictions" I mean the restrictions (from a social level
> perspective) imposed by the biological need to provide for food, shelter,
> clothing etc. on social activity.
I would say "the biological need to PRODUCE food, shelter, clothing." The
necessities of life do not grow on trees. They require work by
individuals.
> Marxism and communism
> can be and have been adapted to reduce the role of the state, increase the
> role of market mechanisms and allow for voluntary associations (civil
> society) to have a sizable role. The terms 'socialism' and 'social
> democracy' have been invented to name such adapted versions.
The term "socialism" appears many times in the Communist Manifesto as well
as in the name of the Nazi party, " National Socialist German Workers"
party. So it wasn't invented to name non-totalitarian versions.
>The standard of living
> that can be attained by a society depends primarily on its role in global
> market capitalism. Societies with socialists or social democrats in power
> don't do significantly worse (or better) than societies with another type
> of government in a comparable role in global market capitalism as far as I
> know.
Then you'll have to explain why Sweden, if it were a U.S. state, would be
be the poorest state, measured by gross household income, or why the
typical middle-class Swede earns less money and enjoys few material goods
than the average African-American in the U.S.
> They do seem to have a more positive role in changing that global
> system to the better.
A rather bold assertion, unsupported by any evidence that I'm aware of.
Best regards,
Platt
> With friendly greetings,
>
> Wim
>
>
>
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