From: Platt Holden (pholden@sc.rr.com)
Date: Mon Jun 21 2004 - 20:01:25 BST
Dear Wim,
> PH wrote 18 Jun 2004 08:09:41 -0400:
> 'Your "types" of society raise a question: Do I detect a claim to improve
> on Pirsig's ideas? :-)'
>
> Unlike you and David B. I never denied the possibility of improving on
> Pirsig's ideas by ordinary mortals. I even think that philosophizing rather
> than philosophologizing should be the purpose of this discussion list.
> Whether my ideas improve on Pirsig's in your experience is up to you to
> assess. I trust that you will give them a fair trial if you can.
I merely repeated the question you asked me in suggesting the Intellectual
Level might better be called the Individual Level. Have I denied the
possibility of improving on Pirsig's ideas?
> From the very beginning homo sapiens -being a social animal- needed
> collective work to produce the food, shelter & clothing it needed for its
> survival.
I don't know what you mean by "collective work" other than individuals at
work.
> Groups/societies always could (and did) exclude high-status
> individuals from the need to produce their own food, shelter & clothing by
> providing it (at least partially) for them. (I wonder what's the principal
> moral difference between social security for low-status individuals and
> keeping up your local feudal lord??)
Good question. It's similar to the moral difference between taxing
everyone equally and a progressive tax. I wonder about what moral
principle applies in that case, too.
> You continued:
> '[If societies with socialists or social democrats in power don't do
> significantly worse (or better) than societies with another type of
> government in a comparable role in global market capitalism] you'll have to
> explain why Sweden, if it were a U.S. state, would be the poorest state,
> measured by gross household income, or why the typical middle-class Swede
> earns less money and enjoys few material goods than the average
> African-American in the U.S.'
>
> Household income is not a good measure of standard of living if the degree
> to which collective services meet part of one's wants differs. I would use
> the Gross National Product (= Gross National Income) per capita or even
> better: the Human Development Index. GNP per capita is higher for the USA
> than for the Swedes (I haven't looked it up, but I guess not more than
> 20%), but Sweden ranks somewhat higher on the HDI (see
> www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0778562.html ). Do you have statistics supporting
> your claim that average middle-class Swedes have a lower household income
> than average African-Americans in the USA?
The statistics are from a study by the Swedish Institute of Trade (HUI)
authored by Fredrick Bergstrom and economist Robert Gidenhag.
> You continued:
> '["Societies with socialists or social democrats in power ... do seem to
> have a more positive role in changing that global system to the better" is]
> a rather bold assertion, unsupported by any evidence that I'm aware of.'
>
> It depends on what we consider a 'change to the better'. A smaller role for
> nations and a larger one for supra-national (but democratic) institutions
> would be an important criterion for me, but not for you, I fear.
You're right. Not for me. Nor would it appear to many Europeans if the
recent low vote for member of the European Union parliament is any
indication. Could it be that there's a genetic disposition to favor one's
own group? :-)
Best regards,
Platt
MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
Mail Archives:
Aug '98 - Oct '02 - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
Nov '02 Onward - http://www.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/summary.html
MD Queries - horse@darkstar.uk.net
To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.5 : Mon Jun 21 2004 - 20:40:30 BST