From: David Morey (us@divadeus.freeserve.co.uk)
Date: Sun Jun 27 2004 - 19:37:14 BST
Hi DMB
spot on
David M
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Buchanan" <DBuchanan@ClassicalRadio.org>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2004 2:02 AM
Subject: MD the metaphysics of free-enerprise
> (Lila, 17) "What makes the free-enterprise system superior is that the
> socialists, reasoning intelligently and objectively, have inadvertently
> closed the door to DQ in the buying and selling of things. They closed it
> because the metaphysical structure of their objectivity never told them DQ
> exists."
>
> msh said:
> What Platt doesn't understand is that Pirsig is speaking about a
> theoretical "Free Market" that doesn't exist. (I'm giving Pirsig the
> benefit of the doubt here.) Communism, then Socialism, were
> REACTIONS to predatory capitalistic instincts thriving on the
> Industrial Revolution and thereby concentrating wealth and power into
> the hands of fewer and fewer individuals.
>
> dmb replies:
> I think its pretty clear that Platt reads selectively, pretending an
> exaggerated interpretation of his favorite quote trumps and/or negates all
> other thoughts on the matter. The quote above might make it appear that
> Pirsig is unequivocally pro-capitalist, provided that the quote was the
> only thing Pirsig ever wrote on the topic. In fact, in the very same
chapter
> Pirsig describes NYC's free-enterprise as a Giant that "devours their
lives
> for its own purposes just as surely as farmers devour the flesh of farm
> animals", and points out that capitalism is LESS MORAL than socialism and
> that "the conservatives who keep trumpeting about the virtues of free
> enterprise are normally just supporting their own self-interest. They are
> just doing the usual cover-up for the rich in their age-old exploitation
of
> the poor".
>
> What Pirsig does in that chapter is examine the classic economic rivals in
> MOQ terms. He's looking at the debate in terms of levels of values and in
> terms of the static/dynamic distinction. In fact, the virtue most loudly
> "trumpeted" by Platt in his case for capitalism is described in that same
> chapter as something that "neither the socialist NOR the capitalist ever
got
> figured out. It's a higher form of evolution. Its and intellectually
guided
> society, not just a society that is guided by mindless traditions. That's
> what gives socialism its drive." So in terms of the levels, socialism is
> associated with the fourth, intellectual level and the capitalism with the
> third, social level. And as we read elsewhere an intellectually guided
> society in absolutely morally superior to one that is not. In terms of the
> static/Dynamic split, the metaphysical blindness that led socialism to
> inadvertantly close the door on DQ is a problem that infects the Modern
West
> as a whole. Pirsig is simply pointing out that capitalism was
inadvertantly
> correct. It leaves the door open, despite the fact that they haven't the
> first clue about what actually makes it work.
>
> And so, even though I disagree with Mark and think Pirsig is talking about
> the theory AND actual practice of the free market system, I also think
he's
> come to the right conclusion; the MOQ is recommending some kind of
socialism
> that DOESN'T inadvertently close the door on DQ. We'd want it to be an
> intellectually guided society AND a dynamic society at the same time.
>
> msh said:
> Capitalism is NOT interested in free markets, and never has been.
> In a true free market economy Capitalism would self-destruct in a
> single generation. Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Grumman, GE,
> Westinghouse, most banks, wouldn't last for a second without HUGE
> taxpayer subsidies in the forms of R&D grants (if not outright
> turnover of taxpayer developed technology) , loans, tax breaks and,
> when necessary, bail outs. So when Platt and others speak of
> Capitalism and Free Market economies as if they are synonymous, they
> are victims of propaganda of the first and most obvious order.
>
> dmb says:
> Sure, traditional institutions like banks, defense contractors and energy
> companies rely on mindless tradition becasue they basically define that
> tradition. They know that a rational and intellectual examination of
things
> is a huge threat to their postion of power and priveledge. They know it
> threatens their "age old exploitation of the poor". One of the sadder
things
> is that nearly all of the largest corporations exercise their power with
> advertising dollars, almost literally controlling what the entire society
> thinks it wants, needs and desires. Collectively, they have the power to
> control what the millions come to value, even if the object of desire
> doesn't have much quality or appeals to lower level values. In a
> "free-market" consumer society, everyone has to play a game of seduction
and
> die the death of a salesman. There are millions who waste their lives in
> pursuit of these empty, phony promises. It's depressing as hell.
>
> Platt said:
> A cultural characteristic that says dedicating yourself to getting an
> education is "acting white" and therefore not to be valued is immoral.
>
> dmb says:
> There is an anti-intellectual streak down the middle of American culture
> that is a mile wide. All Platt has done is spot it in blacks and not in
> whites. And there are many reason why SOME black Americans exhibit
> anti-intellectual attitudes. Once upon a time black literacy was not a
> social goal advocated by progressives and liberals, it was a crime
> punishable by death. And then there is the long history of racist books
that
> proclaim the intellectual inferiority of the people so deprived and
abused.
> This tactic of blaming the victim is very old. Despise the oppressed for
> being destroyed and humiliated at your own hand. Break his back and tell
him
> to improve his posture. Tis very useful in easing the conscience of the
> exploiters to believe the losers somehow deserve it. This is ancient. Even
> the classical Greeks rationalized the holding of slaves by convincing
> themselves that the uncivilized barbarians were better off being forced to
> serve their superiors than being free and at home. That's why Pirsig calls
> it "age old" exploitation.
>
> Thanks.
>
>
>
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