From: David Buchanan (DBuchanan@ClassicalRadio.org)
Date: Sun Jun 27 2004 - 18:33:04 BST
Wim Nusselder said:
David B. is completely free to pour gravy over others (and me on occasion)
as far as I am concerned. I only ask him not to do so. If he refuses, I
accept. He knows that he risks that his post are read less thoroughly by me
in the future.
dmb says:
Wim, as I see it, your requests for restraint and civility contains the
implication that my concerns and criticisms amount to little more than petty
bickering and childish name-calling. This offends me. For example, my
battles with Platt, which promted your requests, do not strike you as
important because its all about the conflict between the third and fourth
level. You do not see the urgency or importance of the issues because you
have your own ideas about the third and fourth levels and those ideas hardly
resemble Pirsig's. The battle Pirsig describes is not unique to America
either. The social level Nazi occupied your country not too long ago and
today it is probably the most liberal nation on earth. This
social/intellectual conflict is going on in your part of the world too and
yet you practically refuse to even aknowledge its existence. This offends me
too. So, if it seems like I am not taking your request seriously, its
because I think you're missing the point of what I'm saying and acting to
undermine its importance. Its because I think YOU'RE not taking ME
seriously. Nor do you seem to appreciate my sense of humor....
Wim continued:
He explicitly refused 19 Jun 2004 14:26:54 -0600. He implicitly refused (and
answered my 20 Jun 2004 07:00:07 +0200 post) in the PS addressed to me at
the end of his 20 Jun 2004 15:26:40 -0600 post. He doesn't take my request
seriously. Otherwise he would have suggested me not to read that last e-mail
in the beginning rather than at the end (when I already had read it).
Because of that I will not discuss the content of his 20 Jun 2004
15:26:40 -0600 post with him (as you suggested 21 Jun 2004 20:30:54 -0700):
too much gravy for my liking. I still discuss other points with him, though,
and I still read most of his posts quite thoroughly.
dmb says:
See? You honestly didn't see the humor in a P.S. suggestion not to read the
post? Maybe its a problem with translation or something, but I thought the
logic of it was the funny part and that should be the same in any culture.
In any case, I think the problem stems from our fundamental disagreement
about the levels. Because you have re-defined them we are literally talking
about two different things and nothing I say will be of any value, no matter
how politely it is expressed.
And you know what else? Freedom of speech and freedom of expression go
together as part of the same right. We are allowed to be angry, outraged and
alarmed and we are all allowed to show it. Asking me to be nicer is like
asking me to feel differently about the issues. Except for jokes and such, I
mean what I say. And the gravy analogy suggests that its not essential to
the substance of the meal, but it also suggests that the meal is much
improved by adding it. I think you should try to see how this is so. You
could even check the archives to test the idea retroactively if you like. I
think you'll see that what looks to you like an unnecessary insult actually
functions as a pithy little summary of the larger point being made. It
serves to boil the essential point down to a sentence or phrase that is
endowed with meaning by all that has come before. Go ahead. See for
yourself. Its not even a rhetorical or literary devise I consciously adopted
or developed. Its just my style. That's how I talk. That's how I think. So
asking me to stop is like asking me to be somebody else. This offends me.
If there is a post I would ask you to read thoroughly, this is it. Read it
more than once. Maybe then you can concentrate on the substance and actually
engage in on the issues (with words used as they are conventionally
defined.) rather than complain about my style. That would NOT offend me.
Thanks.
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