From: David Morey (us@divadeus.freeserve.co.uk)
Date: Sat Jul 10 2004 - 21:31:13 BST
Platt: The best way to get ahead is study and work hard.
DM: What if you do not have access to either of these.
Platt: And what if Quality to me and my neighbor means money?
DM: Here I feel ashamed for you.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Platt Holden" <pholden@sc.rr.com>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>; <owner-moq_discuss@venus.co.uk>
Sent: Friday, July 09, 2004 1:43 AM
Subject: Re: MD the metaphysics of free-enterprise
> Arlo,
>
> > OK. Stay with the lead example. Should there be regulations in place
that
> > prohibit disposing lead waste in areas where it can be shown to effect
the
> > groundwater? In the case of Tijuana, once this lead is disposed, and it
> > causes serious problems, should the companies be forced to clean it up?
>
> Is the Spanish government aware of the common law against polluting
> upstream affecting a neighbor downstream? Are extra regulations required
> to enforce a law that's have been around in the civilized world for
> centuries? If so, why doesn't the Spanish government have such a
> regulation and, if it does, why doesn't it enforce it?
>
> > >No country was more regulated that Soviet Russia, yet it's record of
> > >industrial "horrific conditions" was truly "horrific" compared to the
U.S.
> > >Go to any over-regulated Eastern bloc country if you want to see real
> > >"horrific conditions."
> >
> > And how do you take my argument to favor over-regulation? This is
another
> > example of a false dichotomy, all we can have is *no* regulations or the
> > extreme opposite.
>
> It always starts with a "little regulation." Then do-gooders come along
> and add more regulations. Eventually the country ends up with a lot of
> regulations as the busy-bodies of the world keep interfering with other
> people's lives in order to create their versions of Utopia. Thus, the
> world ends up with a Russia, China, Vietnam, Cuba and a hundred other
> totalitarian governments.
>
> > Oh come on. Are you telling me that paying several cents an hour to an
> > impoverished workforce, who as a result of this and other exploitative
> > actions can never hope to transcend poverty is merely "low" in a
relative
> > sense? You have enough common sense to know when people are being paid
> > fairly and equitablely. Take a look at these people, my friend, and if
you
> > can justify their wages as merely "low" in a relative sense, then I
think
> > you prove my criticism of the current dialogue in this country.
>
> I have enough common sense to know that thousands of immigrants came to
> this country with nothing but the shirts on their backs and have
> prospered. This country wasn't built by on people seeking handouts or
> whining about "fairness." They rolled up their sleeves and went to work,
> grateful to live in a country where they were free to compete in the
> marketplace.
>
> > >I never claimed the free market is altruistic. Quite the opposite. A
free
> > >market is based on selfish interests negotiated among traders. The end
> > >result is "betterment" for all compared socialistic systems of
government
> > >interference.
>
> > "Betterment for all"? How are the Tijuanese laborers "bettered"? By
simply
> > being kept alive? And how are the families in my town and many others
who
> > lost their livelihoods so that wealthy capitalists could earn "just a
> > little more" "bettered"? How are the millions of workers whose main life
> > activity (labor) is so alienated from their being that they "don't care"
> > (to use Pirsig's words)? Are they "bettered" because of all the
wonderful
> > consumer choices they have when they go shopping? Perhpas we disagree
> > fundamentally on what "betterment" means.
>
> Yes, I guess we do. Nothing is more precious than individual freedom.
> Review the MOQ if you need reassurance that freedom is the highest good.
>
> > >Again, "decent wages" is a relative term. What's "indecent" for you and
me
> > >may mean a better life for someone else. Moreover, as far as I know Cok
e
> > >hasn't imprisoned or hanged anyone who disagrees with its corporate
> > >policies.
> >
> > It is not a "relative term". You and everyone else knows damn well when
the
> > line is crossed. Forgive my anger here, but justifying several cents to
the
> > hour as "relative", when anyone with eyes can see the conditions these
> > people live under is maddening. Go spend a few days in Tijuana and tell
me
> > their wages are only "relatively" low. Sheeesh.
>
> Why don't you tell me the cure for poverty throughout the world.
>
> > Too bad there is no common, ancient law about treating others with
> > fairness.
>
> "Fairness" is a concept best suited to the playground. "It's not fair that
> Johnny gets picked to play ball before me." To those who harp on fairness
> I say, "Get used to it. Life isn't fair." The best way to treat others is
> "Live and let live." The best way to get ahead is study and work hard.
>
> > >Your premise seems to be that without government interference the
country
> > >would immediately revert to the 19th century, ignoring all
technological
> > >improvements since then. A dubious premise IMO.
> >
> > Why? Are you suggesting that somehow capitalism became more moral since
> > then? All one has to do, again, is look at the factory conditions and
slave
> > labor in Tijuana (which by the way, I am reusing to keep this discussion
> > concrete, if you'd like I can use other examples) to see there is little
> > difference between there and early industrial Britain. If companies move
to
> > places like Tijuana, so that they can operate like such, why should I
> > believe that if allowed they would operate any differently here?
>
> Where have you been? Ever heard of unions, of robots, of the shift from an
> industrial to a service economy?
>
> > And as for "technological improvements", I think Pirsig pointed out that
> > technology bereft of Quality is vacuous. And I don't see much has
changed
> > from his descriptions of labor then until now.
>
> Well, I don't think Pirsig is blaming the economic system of free
> enterprise for the shortcomings of technology. He blames the scientific
> worldview of a purposeless, amoral universe.
>
> > Good. I propose then the next round of tax cuts come from eliminating
> > corporate handouts.
>
> I second the motion.
>
> > >What would you suggest as a substitute for "money" as the impetus in
the
> > >economy?
> >
> > Quality, of course.
>
> And what if Quality to me and my neighbor means money?
>
> > >In U.S. all citizens (as well illegal immigrants) have access to basic
> > >healthcare.
> >
> > Surely you jest. I can count eight people alone that I am close with
that
> > have no medical coverage that worry endlessly about getting sick because
> > they can't afford doctor visits. One has a serious cavity and can't go
to
> > a dentist. Another I know is wearing six year old prescription glasses
> > because she has no vision insurance. If you think the average person can
> > afford this out-of-pocket you are wrong. And these are all full-time
> > employed people. I don't know what world you live in Platt, but be
grateful
> > you don't live down here with us.
>
> No emergency rooms where you live? No free clinics? Do you live in
> Mexico?
>
> > No, Platt, it is not a regulation I wish imposed. It is a condition I
think
> > would emerge if the dialogue could shift from "earning money" to "doing
> > good".
>
> And what about those who think "doing good" is earning money?
>
> > I want to end the "if it is done in the name of pursuing wealth, we
can't
> > criticize it" blockade to reasonable dialogue. I want to promote ideas
that
> > could re-connect the laborer with the product, perhaps through realistic
> > profit-sharing or local production/consumption. I want to overcome the
> > capitalism/socialism false dichotomy that is so adamantly argued, that
only
> > modern capitalism can promote free-markets.
>
> Well, if you have better ideas, let's hear 'em. I'll bet they'll involve
> some form to state coercion affecting the freedom of individuals to go
> about their business as honest traders in an open marketplace.
>
> Platt
>
>
>
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