From: David Buchanan (DBuchanan@ClassicalRadio.org)
Date: Sun Jul 18 2004 - 19:23:12 BST
DM and all MOQers:
Morey said:
Try a metaphor from Heidegger:
Surely we can only understand coherence if we
can establish its opposite. Try alienation.
Let's say alienation is associated with SOM.
Imagine a master craftsman nailing with a hammer
some nails into some wood. He is doing the job,
he is not aware of himself, he has no problems
to solve, their is a perfect union between the
person, hammer, nails, wood. The activity occurs
pretty thoughtlessly. The self, the objects disappear
into the activity and active state.
dmb says:
Alienation is the opposite of coherence? Hmmm. I would have thought that
incoherence is the opposite of coherence. I would have thought that
immediate engagement is the opposite of alienation. You seem to be using
"alienation" in a novel way. I can see that you're trying to make a
distinction between a carpenter who is "in the zone" and one that is not,
and I can see that you are refering to these as coherent and alienated
respectively, but this simply doesn't reflect the meaning of the words and
so it only confuses things. Alienation, whether we're talking about Hegal,
Marx or Pirsig, simply does not refer to being out of the zone, or not
flowing zen-like, or whatever. Its a social disease with historical roots
well explored by Pirsig in both books. Yes, it related to SOM insofar as
scientific materialism alienates us from our psychological and spiritual
selves by denying their importance or even their existence....
From ZAMM, Chapter 10:
"The cause of our current social crises, he would have said, is a genetic
defect within the nature of reason itself. And until this genetic defect is
cleared, the crises will continue. Our current modes of rationality are not
moving society forward into a better world. They are taking it further and
further from that better world. Since the Renaissance these modes have
worked. As long as the need for food, clothing and shelter is dominant they
will continue to work. But now that for huge masses of people these needs no
longer overwhelm everything else, the whole structure of reason, handed down
to us from ancient times, is no longer adequate. It begins to be seen for
what it really is... emotionally hollow, esthetically meaningless and
spiritually empty. That, today, is where it is at, and will continue to be
at for a long time to come."
This quote is describing the problem with materialism, both the metaphysical
and cultural kind, and this is what produces the alienation. This world view
is emotionally hollow and spiritually empty because such things are "just
subjective". As Ken Wilber puts it, modernity has turned everything into
"its". It has gutted the interior dimensions and produced "flatland", his
name for SOM. Or in the Oxford Encyclopedia of Philosophy...
"Fundamentally, to be alienated is to be seperated from one's own essence or
nature; it is to be forced to lead a life in which that nature has no
opportunity to be fulfilled or actualized. In this way, the experience of
alienation involves a sense of a lack of self-worth and an absense of
meaning in one's life. Alienation in this sense is not fundamentally a
matter of whether your conscious desires are satisfied, or how you
experience your life, but instead of whether your life actualizes your
nature, especially (for both Marx and Hegel) your life with others as a
social being on the basis of a determinate course of historical
development."
My point? The sense of unity one experiences in a state of flow is
definately a good thing, but it is not a cure for alienation in this sense.
The former is a state of consciousness and the latter is a collective,
cultural problem cause by a defect in the intellectual world view called
materialism. It strikes me something like trying to shift the mood of a
nation by changing your personal mood. Its like trying to fix the road by
driving a good car.
Morey continued:
Then the hammer breaks. The hammering stops.
The objects appear before the craftsman, laid
out, no longer active, broken, a problem has
emerged, the coherence is gone, the craftsman is
confronted with hammner, nails, wood as a problem,
lying in the way of his project to make a table. How
can these objects (SQ patterns) be brought back into
coherence with his activity and projects? Alienation is
always derioved from such problems, from failed and
difficult projects, from SQ patterns as obstacles. When
SQ patterns fit in with our values/projects there is coherence.
Any use? Being and Time is full of these practical metaphors
and examples, if you can get through the early chapters.
dmb says:
Alienation comes from broken hammers and failed projects? No, Dave, that's
just not what alienation means. What you've described is called frustration
which, UNLIKE alienation, IS "fundamentally a matter of whether your
conscious desires are satisfied". As you can see, I have some MAJOR problems
with your answer here. We disagree about the very meaning of the key terms
in play. And since your idea of alienation seems so very far away from the
things Pirsig, Hegel, Marx, (who brought the terms in widespread use.) and
the encyclopedia of philosophy, I would suggest that it is not just a matter
of disagreement. Rather, I think you understand the idea incorrectly.
Thanks.
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