From: Valuemetaphysics@aol.com
Date: Mon Jul 26 2004 - 15:19:22 BST
Hello everyone
Hi Mark
I promise to be more concise if you promise to shut off your html. In fact
though, some of my posts haven't been making it through either.
>
>The important thing for me to emphasise is that coherence is solidly based
>in
>the MOQ.
You fail to convince. Quality is a better term and more concise. But I agree
coherence is worth exploring if for nothing else than to broaden one's
horizons. If a person feels the need and has the time, of course.
Mark 26-7-04: I am not trying to convince you Dan. This isn't a debating
contest or a court of law.
>I tend to say the intellectual level is a repertoire of static patterns.
>Within this repertoire there may arise sq-sq (purposeless) tensions at
>which point
>DQ pushes evolution at the intellectual level - the 'ahaa'! feeling when
>inspiration strikes.
I tend to go along with RMP's definition of intellect in LILA'S CHILD and in
his letter to Paul Turner. It's been my experience that inspiration is a lot
of hard work. The trick is to make it look easy.
Mark 26-7-04: Coherence says intellect is patterns of sq evolving towards DQ.
Are you seriously telling me you have a problem with that Dan?
Re: inspiration. It's not hard work. You just have to zazen. Fish. Wait. Be
patient.
>
>Dan:
>The relationship changed; it wasn't the same again.
>
>Mark 21-7-04: The master's displeasure was indicated by his sitting with
>his
>back to EH. But that episode was forgotten and the master/student
>relationship
>was continued.
The relationship continued but it was not the same. You may be using
"forgotten" in a figurative sense here at least I would tend to think so but
the word doesn't apply to a zen master the way it would to a student. The
student may have forgotten all about the incident once the master accepted
them back but you better believe the master will not forget. If you take the
time to read between the lines the rest of the story after the "summer of
practice" lacks the innocence of the first. You might compare it to the Fall
of Adam but of course they blamed that on a woman.
Mark 26-7-04: Thanks.
>
>Mark 21-7-04: I meant cheating, 'not as we understand it.' I expect a fly
>fisherman can cheat, 'not as we understand it' also?
No. I don't think so. You're talking about action. Having not seen the movie
you mention it's hard for me to understand exactly what you're getting at
but I think, unless the fly fisherman understands that inaction allows one
to fish in a freer style, then they cheat as we in the West understand
cheating to be.
Mark 26-7-04: This movie is discussed by Pirsig in an audio lecture. The link
between fly fishing, archery and motorcycle maintenance of the sweet spot
should be pretty well plain. I would suggest you stop thinking about this for a
while and just wait.
I enjoy fishing but I don't like to harm the fish unless I'm planning on
eating them. Some people say fish don't feel pain but I've heard them holler
so I know they do indeed feel pain. But I like to socialize with my friends
and family so I weight the end of my line and cast it out. I never catch
anything. But that's not why I enjoy fishing.
Mark 26-7-04: I would have a problem catching fish Dan. I'm a bit of a tart
when it comes to hurting living things. However, if i relied on fish to survive
i reckon i would develop a respect for the art. The folks in 'a river runs
through it' probably relied on fish to some extent in order to survive at that
time in American history.
>
>Dan:
>I suspect William James Sidis, Bobby Fischer, and others of their stripes
>suffer fools poorly which sets them apart socially. But that wasn't my
>point
>in bringing it up.
>
>Mark 21-7-04: What was you point then? I was pointing out that archery, fly
>fishing, chess, mathematics all have sweet spots. That is to say,
>exceptional
>sq-sq tension or coherence (within their respective repertoire's of sq
>patterns).
The MOQ would say Quality inheres in all the topics you list. My point was
that rather than pointing a student to taking action in learning a topic a
zen master points the student to taking inaction. The student already knows
how to perfectly draw the bow and shoot the arrow. All the student must to
is remember that they know. The same can be said about playing the perfect
chess game. The memory is uncovered through inaction, not action. That's how
a person can beat anyone in the world, if one has the predilection.
Mark 26-7-04: This sounds a bit Platonic to me. Memory is remembering. I am
confused.
It seems to me that if you 'get on' to coherence you can begin to see it all
over the place, and yet there are many people who don't get to see it even
once?
Thank you for your comments,
Dan
Mark 26-7-04: As always you're most welcome Dan.
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