From: Platt Holden (pholden@sc.rr.com)
Date: Wed Jul 28 2004 - 14:50:01 BST
Hi Johnny,
> I think you are saying here joining the military to fight biological
> criminals is Intellectual? I may have missed a post or two but I remember
> you saying that the intellectual level could be renamed the "individual
> level" for some strange reason, so I think "individual success" must mean
> success at an individual "achieving" the intellectual level?
All human beings have "achieved" intellectual level. Pirsig says the
intellectual level is the same as mind.
> OK, first off, what makes the individual joining the military any different
> from the individuals the individual is fighting? Both sides consider the
> other criminals, and all individuals are bio patterns. This is an example
> of how the MoQ can be used to justify anything you want to justify. Just
> call the enemy "bio criminals" and suddenly it's OK to destroy them like
> germs. Fine, but that's what they say, too.
Surely you can see a difference between initiating physical force
(biological) and defending against it (social and intellectual).
> The fourth level cannot be called the individual level, because the SECOND
> level is the individual level.
Pirsig calls the second level biological. What's individual about it?
> When the individuals interact, you get
> third level patterns, when third level patterns interact, you get fourth
> level patterns.
How do you define "fourth level patterns?"
> Individuals do not achieve the fourth level, fourth level
> patterns are propogated by interacting third level patterns.
Above you say "success must mean an individual achieving intellectual
patterns. Now you say individuals do not achieve intellectual patterns.
> Sure, they
> are propogated by consciousnesses, but so are patterns of every level.
Huh?
Platt.
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