>===== Original Message From moq_discuss@moq.org =====
>
Hi John,
I look forward to reading your essay. I really have been enjoying what you
have been saying. I think I still differ from you in that I have not given up
on Pirsig yet though. I think that people interested in MoQ are like the
people who say they are following the message of Jesus, Buddha etc. -- For
some the message is so diluted, distorted it is almost the opposite of their
intended message.
I think when a message is at such a high level that it becomes very ambiguous
and sometimes becomes like one of the ink blots in a Rorshach test. Although
each ink blot has its own shape we all see something different because we are
imposing our own mental pattern onto it. I think some people's perception of
the ink blot will be closer than others, and i think you are more successful
if you try hard to see it without trying to fit into any previous mental
image.
The reason that I have not given up on Pirsig or the MoQ is because the
message I got at the end of Lila still seems good to me. I think Pirsig
throughout most of his life and most of his novels has his self attached to
the intellectual level. In Lila Rigel looked up to him because of
it(resentfully) and Lila looked down at him because of it. At the end of Lila
when he let go of his ego or self he let go of the attachment to this level
and the opinions of these others didn't matter anymore.
I have been thinking about the 5th level a lot since your last post. I'm not
sure if this way of thinking is another level or if the hierarchy of the other
levels is just breaking down. I think once the levels break down then they
can all integrated into a new level, which involves no hiearchy or prejudice
of levels. I think that your biological, social and intellectual selves need
fulfilling and if you are attached to one you are probably ignoring the
others. I am still not sure if this is a 5th level or if the borders of the
other levels are breaking down.
I think when Pirsig let go of his attachment to the intellectual self, the
social and biological selves were able to emerge within himself, leaving a
sense of wholeness.
Erin
Hi Erin,
>
>Thanks for the positive feedback. I love your quote
>
>"A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely
>rearranging
>their prejudices." William James
>
>My attitude towards the mystic position has changed quite a bit in the past
>year or two. I used to see the mystic as operating from the biological
>level, (in Pirsigese), and hence regressive. I also shared Pirsig's unease
>with the seeming loss of moral values that mystics display, in the sense
>that what is, is good, including all those bits we normally label bad.
>Pirsig, you may remember, left Benares Hindu University after ten years and
>just 'gave up' over this very issue.
>
>I've become somewhat fired up over this issue and am sending off yet another
>essay to the forum tonight, entitled "Quality, Mysticism and Action in the
>World"
>which may interest you when it gets posted. I must say that I seem to have a
>much clearer view of where the issues are now, and feel about ready to move
>on from Pirsig. I have enjoyed very much the debate and ideas I have found
>on this forum, but much of the argument is getting repetitive, perhaps not
>unrelated to your quote above. No doubt others find my ideas similarly
>stale. One of the interesting things that has happened since I started
>posting more mystic stuff is that I have been getting emails from people who
>have seen the post on the moq site, but want to talk privately. I'm not sure
>what it all means, but it indicates something is shifting.
>
>I thought you did a good job of summarising my position when you said
>"So the fourth level brings individuality and the fifth level will bring
>integration."
>I'll let you know if I ever get there.
>
>All the best.
>
>John B
>
>
>
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