From: Elizaphanian (Elizaphanian@members.v21.co.uk)
Date: Sun Nov 03 2002 - 10:20:24 GMT
Hi David,
Good to have you back!
I'll take on board some of the points you raise when I make a 'final'
presentation of my argument, in a post to come. But in the meantime, two
minor comments:
> DMB says:
> This quote re-states the point Erin and I are trying to make, but it also
> addresses some of Sam's objections to the intellectual level. Pirsig too,
> dislikes the idea of a "disembodied intellect". He addresses the issue of
> what it is that is capable of quality apprehension; namely the whole
> collection of patterns that constitute the self. This includes the
emotional
> self. In fact, it preceeds the intellect and the intellect couldn't exist
> without, as understood by mainstream psychology and the MOQ. As far as I
can
> tell, most of your objections would disappear with a closer look at the
MOQ.
> I mean, it seems Pirsig complains about many of the same things you've
been
> pondering.
No one would be happier than me if it can be shown that Pirsig's account
already covers my concerns. My own view is that there is a tension embedded
in Lila that needs to be teased out. I think sometimes Pirsig says something
supporting my points, sometimes he says something going against it.
(Possibly the difference between 'Pirsig' and 'Phaedrus'?) Either I haven't
fully absorbed his position or there is a contradiction there. What I'm
trying to do is fully articulate what I perceive to be the contradiction; if
someone can show me that there isn't one - excellent! This was why I wanted
to write my 'standard' account of the MoQ, because that is the construction
that I will eventually take issue with. On which topic:
dMB says:
The 21st century has arrived and so far its alot like the 20th century, only
faster. I know, you're just speculating about the future, but I have to take
issue anyway. It closely resembles the piture Pirsig paints of our recent
history, but I think its off in a couple of important ways.
You depict the 20th century as "a struggle between social patterns of value
with differing degrees of intellectual control". Oh, so close. Pirsig
dipicts it as a struggle between third and fourth level, but you seem to
want to fudge this with a clash between differing social patterns....
Sam says:
You've picked out an area where I disagree with the standard account, and
where I inadvertently incorporated my understanding into what was intended
as a neutral description. As I want to outline the standard account, not
mine, I'll adjust the text. At least you do say it 'closely resembles the
picture Pirsig paints'... :o)
Sam
www.elizaphanian.v-2-1.net/home.html
MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
Mail Archive - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
MD Queries - horse@darkstar.uk.net
To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.5 : Sun Nov 03 2002 - 10:17:22 GMT