From: David Buchanan (DBuchanan@ClassicalRadio.org)
Date: Sat Nov 30 2002 - 19:19:58 GMT
Sam and y'all:
Pirsig's full response is:
"After the beginning of history inorganic, biological, social and
intellectual patterns are found existing together in the same person. I
think the conflicts mentioned here are intellectual conflicts in which one
side clings to an intellectual justification of existing social patterns and
the other side intellectually opposes the existing social patterns. A social
pattern which would be unaware of the next higher level would be found among
prehistoric people and the higher primates when they exhibit social learning
that is not genetically hard-wired but yet is not symbolic."
Sam said:
I think it's pretty clear that Pirsig is saying that anyone in a
non-prehistoric culture is aware of (or better 'participates in')
intellectual patterns, and that this would include Lila. (And that the
intellectual level does not begin with Socrates, as you claim, it begins at
'the beginning of history').
DMB says:
Thanks for the context. The fuller picture raises some questions for me, but
I just wanted to point out that historical times begin about the time of
Socrates. Prehistoric times aren't exactly the same as pre-Socratic times,
but they're in the same ballpark. The beginning of history is not the
beginning of time or of humantiy, it is the beginning of human record
keeping. Sure, we can find all kinds of artifacts that tell us about
pre-historic cultures that go way, way back, but those artifacts were not
produced as historical records. Herodotus is widely, but arguably,
considered the father of history. He was born about 490 BCE. I wonder if he
knew Socrates? In any case, it looks like its my turn to expand your
vocabulary. Fortunately, "prehistoric" is a word you'll find in any normal
English dictionary.
PREHISTORIC: adj. 1. Of or pertaining to the time prior to recorded history.
PREHISTORY: noun 1. Human history in the period before recorded events,
known mainly through archaeological discoveries, study, research etc.
Also you asked if I was "really arguing that Lila is not a person"? As I
said before, she is a duck in a tuxedo. Just kidding.
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