Re: MD Can Only Humans Respond to DQ?

From: Wim Nusselder (wim.nusselder@antenna.nl)
Date: Sun Dec 01 2002 - 22:06:27 GMT

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    Dear David B.,

    Another 'try' (in spite of Yoda):

    Pirsig answers the question 'Does Lila have Quality?' in several seemingly
    contradictory ways.
    In chapter 11 of 'Lila' he wrote:
    'It isn't Lila that has quality; it's Quality that has Lila. Nothing can
    have Quality. To have something is to possess it, and to possess something
    is to dominate it. Nothing dominates Quality. If there's domination and
    possession involved, it's Quality that dominates and possesses Lila. She's
    created by it. She's a cohesion of changing static patterns of this Quality.
    There isn't any more to her than that. The words Lila uses, the thoughts she
    thinks, the values she holds, are the end product of three and a half
    billion years of the history of the entire world. She's a kind of jungle of
    evolutionary patterns of value. She doesn't know how they all got there any
    more than any jungle knows how it came to be. 'And yet there in the middle
    of this "Lila Jungle" are ancient prehistoric ruins of past civilizations.
    You could dig into those ruins like an archaeologist layer by layer, through
    regressive centuries of civilization, measuring by the distance down in the
    soil, the distance back in time.
    ...
    Lila is composed of static patterns of value and these patterns are evolving
    toward a Dynamic Quality. That's the theory, anyway. She's on her way
    somewhere, just like everybody else. And you can't say where that somewhere
    is.'

    In spite of 'Nothing can have Quality' Pirsig answers the same question
    'Does Lila have Quality?' in chapter 13 with:
    'Biologically she does, socially she doesn't. Obviously! Evolutionary
    morality just splits that whole question open like a watermelon. Since
    biological and social patterns have almost nothing to do with each other,
    Lila does and Lila does not have quality at the same time. That's exactly
    the feeling she gave too-a sort of mixed feeling of quality and no quality
    at the same time. That was the reason.
    How simple it was. That's the mark of a high-quality theory. It doesn't just
    answer the question in some complex round-about way. It dissolves the
    question, so you wonder why you ever: asked it.
    Biologically she's fine, socially she's pretty far down the scale,
    intellectually she's nowhere.'

    To what extent is Lila (any human like this fictitional character) created
    by biological, social and intellectual patterns of value then? Could we
    say -using the second quote- that she is created mainly by biological
    patterns of value, not (as 'socially she doesn't' have Quality) or to a
    small extent (being 'pretty far down the scale') by social patterns of value
    and not at all by intellectual patterns of values?

    'Since biological and social [and intellectual] patterns have almost nothing
    to do with each other' I doubt if comparing the extent to which a person
    (understood as a 'cohesion of changing static patterns' of value) is created
    by patterns of each level is very useful. I'd say that a person 'is part of
    patterns of value on different levels' instead of 'is composed of static
    patterns of value on different levels'.
    Painting a portrait of Lila on the intellectual level as being part of
    specific intellectual patterns of value would indeed be quite difficult.
    Given the role of this character in Pirsig's novel, he gives us very little
    information to base ourselves on.
    If I and other contributors to this discussion tend to say that Lila (and
    real life persons comparable to her) must also be part of intellectual
    patterns of value, it is probably partly because of egalitarian sentiments,
    the feeling that stating that anyone could NOT have access to intellectual
    quality (whereas others have) would justify unequal rights. (If we can
    distinguish between -mainly- biological, social and intellectual people, why
    not give for instance voting rights exclusively to the intellectual people?
    Wouldn't that make for better political decisions?)
    I feel Pirsig to be on my side on this issue. Why else would he state (in
    the same chapter 13, a few paragraphs before the 'intellectually she's
    nowhere' quote) that even criminals should be treated as a 'source of
    thought'?
    ('What makes killing [a criminal] immoral is that a criminal is not just a
    biological organism. He is not even just a defective unit of society.
    Whenever you kill a human being you are killing a source of thought too. A
    human being is a collection of ideas, and these ideas take moral precedence
    over a society. Ideas are patterns of value. They are at a higher level of
    evolution than social patterns of value.')

    I don't think that "intellectually she's nowhere" is 'merely' a rhetorical
    statement, either. (Even if probably it was ALSO designed for effect.)
    Pirsig also tried to convey some sort of truth.
    I have trouble squaring it with 'It isn't Lila that has quality; it's
    Quality that has Lila.', however. Pirsig's ways of conveying his truth not
    always paint a clear picture of what he means for me. So I try to clarify
    things by painting my own picture. Lila (or anyone) not participating at all
    in intellectual patterns of value (whereas others do) would be difficult to
    square with other parts of my picture (my intellectual reality). Given the
    egalitarian sentiments you also expressed before, how do you resolve this?

    With friendly greetings,

    Wim

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