From: Barritt (mbarritt@nc.rr.com)
Date: Mon Dec 23 2002 - 02:12:56 GMT
An excellent post.
Barritt
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Buchanan" <DBuchanan@ClassicalRadio.org>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Saturday, December 21, 2002 4:27 PM
Subject: RE: MD Systematic about the Sophists
> Thanks to Barritt, Davor, Maggie, Matt, Sam and all readers:
>
> Matt said:
> ...if logos is believed to be emergent from the mythos, then the change
> between the levels is not discrete. ... A continuation, possibly in a
> different direction, but still a continuation, not a sharp, discrete
break.
> This is why, by the end of ZMM, Pirsig favored the Sophists, not the
> Socratics.
>
> Pirsig says in ZMM:
> "The mythos-over-logos argument states that our rationality is shaped by
> these legends [the mythos], that our knowledge today is in relation to
> these legends as a tree is in relation to the little shrub it once was.
> One can gain great insights into the complex overall structure of the tree
> by studying the much simpler shape of the shrub. There's no difference in
> kind or even difference in identity, only a difference in size." (Ch 28)
>
> DMB says:
> This is a critical issue. As I said, putting our MOQ glasses on "only
makes
> ZAMM more clear and specific" and "resloves some ambiguities". The quote
> above, for examaple, was written before the term "static levels" was
> invented, which changes it dramatically and clears things up. "The
> structuring of morality into evolutionary levels suddenly gives shape to
all
> kinds of blurred and confuesed moral ideas that are floating around in our
> present cultural heritage." (163)The distinction between social and
> intellectual static values removes the ambiguity so that the difference is
> not analogous to a shrub and a tree, but to the sand and a tree. The
> distinction is as sharp as between inorganic matter and living creatures.
> BUT, and this is a really, really huge point, "This 'mythos over logos'
> thesis agreed with the MOQ's assertion that intellectual static patterns
are
> built up out of social static patterns of quality". (378) This is what
> Descartes failed to notice, what SOM fails to notice, what the Chairman
> failed to notice and it is missing link that Pirsig uses to resolve so
much.
> There really is no problem with the logos being BOTH emergent from and
> different than the mythos. In fact, the problem of SOM and so many
> misunderstandings here stems precisely from not seeing this relationship
> properly. Going back to the Sophists and Presocratic philosophers is aimed
> at making that relationship easier to seems to be at the heart of Pirsig's
> quest.
>
> Because DQ drives this evolutionary process, this relationship has to be
> seen in the larger static/Dyanamic framework too. Which brings us to Sam's
> comments.
>
> Sam said:
> However, in this last post you are bringing in an 'outside' authority -
> Campbell - which I think is a mistake at this point in our discussions.
> (BTW, where does Pirsig refer to him?) I think that for the time being we
> should just stick to what Pirsig says and not try and either support or
> criticise it. In other words the objective is clarity (about Pirsig's
> position) not truth (is what Pirsig says correct).
>
> DMB says:
> I have to insist that Campbell be considered fair game in this discussion.
> Pirsig mentions his MASKS OF GOD in the final pages of Lila (P401) as a
way
> to understand idols, ritual and the mythos. Campbell's relevence to the
> issue can hardly be overestimated and only helps to explain things. I
might
> employ some outside voices, but its just to get at Pirsig's meaning.
>
> Sam said:
> .............The question I would pose is this: why does there have to be
an
> 'essence' of mythology, and what is it in your manner of thinking that
leads
> to that necessity?
>
> DMB says:
> Hmmm. I don't know if the "essence" of myth is what I'm trying to get at
> here, exactly, but I think I know what you're asking. I'd say its not a
> necessity, it is an observation. From the Guidebook, page 23...
>
> "In the spiritual traditions of both the East and the West - I am thinking
> not about particular religions, but about the mystical element to be found
> in them all - we find the claim that eventually one must let go of the
> activities of thought and imagination in order to enter regions of
> consciousness that such symbolic activity cannot reach. The journey then
> becomes no longer a matter of metaphysical musing and horizontal ramblings
> but a matter of vertical plunging (or rising) toward what T.S. Eliot
> referred to as 'the still point of the turning world'. We might say the
> journey becomes journeyless."
>
> Sure, there are plenty of differences between myths, religions and
spiritual
> traditions, but there is a central core that says one must take the
plunge.
> This is the hero's journey. The aim of the journey is a unitive
experience,
> a mystical experience. And if "DQ is identified with religious mysticism"
> (Lila P377) and "Quality is the primordial source of all our
understanding"
> (Lila P378) and "Quality is the generator of everything we know" (ZM 354)
> and rituals are "a static portrayal of DQ, a sign-post which allows
> socially-dominated people to see DQ" (Lila chapter 30) then you can start
to
> see what I mean. We get the same idea in ZAMM, the Guidebook and Lila.
From
> volume three of THE MASKS OF GOD...
>
> "It is a law of our subject, proven time and time again, that where the
> orthodoxies of the world go apart, the mystic way unites. The orthodoxies
> are concerned primarily with the maintenance of a certain social order,
whin
> the pale of which the iddivdual is to function; in the interest of which a
> certain 'wywtem of sentiments'
>
>
>
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