RE: MD Systematic about the Sophists (all of society's ills)

From: David Buchanan (DBuchanan@ClassicalRadio.org)
Date: Sat Dec 28 2002 - 21:51:29 GMT

  • Next message: john williams: "MD re: quality decisions"

    Steve, Matt and all MOQers:

    Matt said:
    I think money and war are much more explanatory than intellectual history
    as to what the problems of society are. I follow Marx in thinking that the
    primary motor of history is economic. ... What I'm opposed to is thinking
    that the road to solving all our problems is best served by simply changing
    our minds, becoming more spiritual, "by individuals making Quality decisions
    and that's all." (Ch 29) This is definitely where Pirsig and I part ways.

    Steve responded:
    Everyone is spiritual whether they know it or not if the universe is based
    on value not material. ... I don't have statistics to back up my claim, but
    I think you are wrong. If you are taking economics to be the "primary motor
    of history"
    then the world is getting better and better, not to hell. People are more
    wealthy now than ever. The fact that we all know that the world is not
    really getting better contradicts using economics as a measure.

    DMB says:
    Fear and desire is the cause of all suffering. The fear of death and the
    desire for wealth, power and prestige are symptoms of a mind that clings an
    illusion. The temptations of Christ reflect this challenge. Consider the
    lilies. Its easier for a camel. Its Buddhaist, its Christian, its the MOQ.
    This is classic stuff, gents. Here Steve is essentially putting the idea
    that "man does not live by bread alone" into his own words. Matt, apparently
    speaking as Satan's attorney, makes the opposite case. ;-)

    I think Pirsig reconciles these opposties.

    I think the East and West have both taken the point too far. When the world
    is seen as either an illusion or as evil and corrupt our transcendent selves
    are reduced to mere escape artists. I mean, there is truth to the idea that
    spiritual growth is a kind of ascent toward "God", but it is also true that
    this world is a manifestation of this same "God". Its all Quality. The
    creator is DQ and the creation is SQ, so to speak. The evolutionary morality
    of conflicting static patterns makes sense in a larger context where Dynamic
    Quality is the source and goal of these migrating static patterns.

    As I understand it, Pirsig does say that the more liberal ideologies, that
    one's that would tend to concern themselves with feed and educate the poor,
    are more moral than the one's that don't. The problem is not our inability
    to comprehend the solutions to such problems, its a matter of political
    will. Its a matter of the intellectual and spiritual development of the
    voters. Its a matter of what people think and belived and how they see the
    world. They can only be solved by "individuals making quality decisions". If
    fact, it seems that the problems are caused individuals making bad
    decisions, by ignorance and darkness. Its not about a lack of money or food,
    but a lack of justice and compassion.

    Thanks,
    DMB

      

    MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
    Mail Archive - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
    MD Queries - horse@darkstar.uk.net

    To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
    http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html

    This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.5 : Sat Dec 28 2002 - 21:52:09 GMT