From: Mari (mld2001@adelphia.net)
Date: Mon Jan 06 2003 - 14:00:11 GMT
Erin wrote:
> Mari,
> I first just want to point out that I am not
> speaking for Pirsig. I don't know why he does what
> he does..just speculations.
>
Mari: Do you think anyone here is "speaking for Pirsig"? Surely not his
children from what i've seen so far.
>
> >Hi Erin,
> >> Thanks for your feedback. i'd like to ask a few questions.
> >
> >Can you explain "karmic garbage"?
> >"Concerns" can be a good thing.
> >Are you saying that there is a connection between "programs" and "plans"
and
> >"karmic garbage"? Can MoQ.org be viewed as a "program" of sorts?
> >http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=program
>
>
> I am going to come back to this one in another post.
> I tried to write out my ideas about it when
> John and Wim were discussing something.
> So I will explain this more later and just want
> to say again they are just my personal speculations.
Mari: Okay i'm looking forward to your response.
>
> > "Everybody's ideas of a
> >> good program is going to be different, depending
> >> on what you value."
> >And that means what? don't use something that obviously has Value and the
> >potentiality to make a difference in the world? Don't rally the wagons
and
> >move "it" to another level where it effects changes in a collectively
agreed
> >upon way???
>
> It obviously has value. To who--people who value it.
> Glenn has participated for how long...ask him
> if it has obviously has value. Glenn is very intelligent too.
> I think everybody can experience quality but
> am wondering if you need to be dominated by
> intellectual level to understand it.
> Maybe, maybe not.
>
> >>"MOQ works very well for me as a personal tool to
> >> understand how different people value different
> >> things and its all good." Nothing wrong with that Erin. Let your
> >conscience and values be your guide. That said, it doesn't mean there is
no
> >Value in joining forces and making a difference beyond ones personal
space.
>
> I am participating here. I also do other things that
> I don't care to list out. This 'moq cause' is not
> clear to me. I don't understand what you want.
Mari: i'm reading your response line by line and as a whole then reading
a few lines again thinking about your :" I don't understand what you want"
you say that again 2 parapgraphs down. A small rush of thoughts come to
mind....hopefully in short order that will be more clear to you and to
others who may want to know as well as i do. i'm still sorting things out
for the big picture. IN the mean time what i want is clear communication
with you for this post. It seems that you take offense at my thoughts about
RMP dropping out. i have no burning desire to convince you that i am right.
It's simply my thoughts and feelings that make me say at times that he is
not a very good parent if we can agree upon that metaphor since he's used it
himself in referring to the MoQ.dg
In responding to your first post which was a response to my ( i suppose this
is a reflection in a sense of my "wants" ) post about finding a practical
use of the MoQ philosophy and the abandonment of Daddio, you paraphrased
what i was saying in such a way that it pulled the meaning out of whack. IN
the paragraph below this you say: ">>"> If Pirsig values freedom wouldn't it
be contradictory
> >> to develop a program to tell people what to do" i wrote back wanting to
know how you came to THAT conclusion that i wanted him to tell ME or others
what to do. That's not i want. i would like him to be present. i'd like to
ask him and not just the MoQ pundits questions about his books and
philosophy. Furthermore i'm not convinced that by him hiding out equates to
"freedom"....it might but it might also be reclusiveness, isolationism, who
knows for sure? He didn't handle Rigels confrontation very well in Lila. He
seemed shaken and thought about it a lot after it happened....he even seemed
angry. Maybe he's affraid that there are a bunch of Rigels here and he won't
be able to defend himself....imagine the riff between MoQers if that ever
happened especially inlight of the posts over the last few days!!! Geeeeez!
Can you imagine that? LOL
> >>"> If Pirsig values freedom wouldn't it be contradictory
> >> to develop a program to tell people what to do."
> >Connecting the dots in this way, lends itself IMHO to convoluting the
> >picture: "If Pirsig values freedom wouldn't it be contradictory to
develop a
> >program 'to tell people what to do'" to tell people what to do"? Where
did
> >that come from? What about "being united" in conviction, aim, and intent?
> >"Give me a place to stand on, and I will move the earth."
> >Sometimes i think that responses to posts here in MoQdg sound like the
> >bickering by democrates at republicans and visa versa forgetting all the
> >while that first they are human, then countrymen and then politicans.
>
> I read in a previous post ( i don't think it was
> by you) that we don't have enough antagonists to
> Pirsig's work. Now I have to read why can't we all agree in
> your post.I am sorry but it seems this list is damned
> if we do agree and damned if we don't. Again what you want is not clear to
me.
Mari: Here again you go from one extreme to another. i think it was Rudy's
post that mentioned more people challenging Pirsig. But even that does not
negate the possibility of reaching agreement does it? Who said: ">>>>why
can't we all agree...." Rodney King said "why can't we all get along" What i
said is why can't we work towards an agreement on something. Might be nice
to have a MoQ not for profit org that could actually DO SOMETHING: feed
somebody, create a charter school to educate in a new way, how about
volunteer in the name of MoQ Humanities? Something beside rhethoric! That's
what i want. i won't speak for others unless we stood untied about something
substantive.
> i'm even awed at his insights! But
> >unlike other brillant minds that contribute to the knowedge base and then
> >follow through with personal partisipation Mr Pirsig dropped out and i
don't
> >buy his explaination of why he leaves us alone. When Arthur Rimbaud did
a
> >similar thing it was said that he commited artistic suicide. Didn't WJ
Sidis
> >do the same thing; drop out?
> >i have been blessed to meet and talk with some of the people who i admire
> >and effected positive change in my life. i wish RMP was one of them!
> >
>
> Maybe everybody is not the same Mari.
> Maybe some people are meant to teaching and others in writing novels.
> I was struck by the image in a classroom where
> he sat silently freaking the students out.
> I read somewhere but can't remember the name
> of a buddhist term about somebody who refuses
> to teach. Not that teaching has no value but
> maybe its not for everyone. I don't agree with you with the hiding out
> part. My intuitions say its for his own
> moral reasons. Again I think it is wrong to tell a novelist
> he is not doing anything.
Mari: if i said he is doing nothing i'm sorry what i meant is he is doing
something: hiding out
> Imagine after you put all the work into your Mari:
People can say anything they want: they could hate my work. That's
"freedom". And if i am to
> play somebody coming up to you and
be perfectly honest i'd have to say that i've disappeared before, even got
my head on straight
> asking so why have you been hiding out and
once or twice then dropped back in.....i'm hoping RMP does the same....and
if not as
> not doing anything.
Kilgore Trout might say: and so it goes.......
> Would you have felt the same need to
Storytellers indeed change the world.....they're not the only ones who do.
Their readers do to!
> get after Picasso of not having a program to
> unite the world?
Exile is another story.
> I think storytelling changes the world not
> plans or programs so yes I do think Pirsig
> is doing something and not hiding out.
Mari
> James Joyce--"silence, cunning, exile"
>
> Erin
>
>
>
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