From: Ian Glendinning (ian@psybertron.org)
Date: Fri Aug 13 2004 - 23:03:53 BST
Memes areas "real" as the MoQ.
Let's not have an SOM debate about that.
Patterns of thinking if you like, usually ultimately expressable in
language, certainly easily communicable.
Key thing about a meme is how easy it catches on with the receiver /
beholder,
ie how easily it fits, reinforces or is reinforced by existing patterns.
Least significant thing is whether it is true / right / good whatever.
As a believer in Darwinian evolution I find it easy to accept Dawkins
metaphor of memes as the cultural analogy to the bioogical genes.
Reproducible and mutatable, with "success" depending on the interacting
environment.
No brainer.
Interestingly, Susan Blackmore who popularised memes, with here book Meme
Machine,
has a strong "zen" thread in her life too. Try "Waking from the Meme Dream"
here ..
http://terebess.hu/english/meme.html
On the subject of Dawkins I have branded him "hyper-rational" (after Edward
Tufte).
Wrote an essay on the subject here ..
http://www.psybertron.org/Dawkins%20Hyper-Rationalism.html
(Search and read James Willis stuff on my site too.)
Ian Glendinning
www.psybertron.org
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Turner" <paul@turnerbc.co.uk>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2004 5:19 PM
Subject: RE: MD the metaphysics of free-enterprise
> Hi Platt
>
> Platt said:
> Dawkins is, if anything, a high priest of scientific materialism. Yet,
> memes have no objective, material reality. By Dawkins' own metaphysics,
> memes don't exist; they'll never show up under a microscope.
>
> Paul:
> That is why I said the MOQ gives the idea of memes a sound metaphysical
> support. Non-physical reality is not a problem to the MOQ.
>
> Paul quoted the dictionary:
> > "Memes can be considered the unit of cultural evolution. Ideas can
> > evolve in a way analogous to biological evolution. Some ideas survive
> > better than others; ideas can mutate through, for example,
> > misunderstandings; and two ideas can recombine to produce a new idea
> > involving elements of each parent idea."
>
> Platt said:
> A nice theory. But where does DQ come in? Why is DQ necessary?
>
> Paul:
> I'm not saying Dawkins produced the MOQ. This is just a quote from the
> dictionary definition of "meme."
>
> Platt said:
> And where do memes dwell if not in the minds of individuals?
>
> Paul:
> Memes are analogous to patterns - therefore the mind *is* the patterns,
> nothing *contains* patterns.
>
> Paul quoted the dictionary:
> > "Use of the term connotes acceptance of the idea that in humans (and
> > presumably other tool- and language-using sophonts) cultural evolution
> by
> > selection of adaptive ideas has become more important than biological
> > evolution by selection of hereditary traits."
>
> Platt said:
> Who are "sophonts?" Note the use of the passive voice. Adaptive ideas
> are selected. By whom? Humans and sophonts.
>
> Paul:
> In other words, who is doing the valuing? Bo asked this question and
> Pirsig gave an answer in LILA'S CHILD:
>
> Bo: "If the world is composed of values, then who is doing the valuing?"
> Pirsig: "This is a subtle slip back into subject-object thinking. Values
> have been converted to a kind of object in this sentence, and then the
> question is asked, "If values are an object, then where is the subject?"
> The answer is found in the MOQ sentence, "It is not Lila who has values,
> it is values that have Lila." [LILA'S CHILD Note 76]
>
> Platt said:
> Which brings us right back to individuals.
>
> Paul:
> No. At the risk of kowtowing, here are another couple of quotes from
> Pirsig:
>
> In response to this from Platt:
> "The history of man since then could be summarized as the struggle of
> the I against the We, the Intellect against Society, a mighty struggle
> that continues to this day."
>
> Pirsig wrote:
> "The word "I" like the word "self" is one of the trickiest words in any
> metaphysics. Sometimes it is an object, a human body; sometimes it is a
> subject, a human mind. I believe there are number of philosophic
> systems, notably Ayn Rand's "Objectivism," that call the "I" or
> "individual" the central reality. Buddhists say it is an illusion. So do
> scientists. The MOQ says it is a collection of static patterns capable
> of apprehending Dynamic Quality. I think that if you identify the "I"
> with the intellect and nothing else you are taking an unusual position
> that may need some defending."
>
> And a couple more:
>
> "The MOQ, as I understand it, denies any existence of a "self" that is
> independent of inorganic, biological, social or intellectual patterns.
> There is no "self" that contains these patterns. These patterns contain
> the self. This denial agrees with both religious mysticism and
> scientific knowledge. In Zen, there is reference to "big self" and
> "small self." Small self is the patterns. Big self is Dynamic Quality."
> [LILA'S CHILD Note 29]
>
> "It's important to remember that both science and Eastern religions
> regard "the individual" as an empty concept. It is literally a figure of
> speech. If you start assigning a concrete reality to it, you will find
> yourself in a philosophic quandary." [LILA'S CHILD Note 77]
>
> I am finding it difficult to make you see this aspect of the MOQ,
> perhaps I should just leave you in your "philosophical quandary." ;-)
>
> Cheers
>
> Paul
>
>
>
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