From: Paul Turner (paul@turnerbc.co.uk)
Date: Thu Jul 29 2004 - 17:19:51 BST
Hi Platt
Platt said:
Dawkins is, if anything, a high priest of scientific materialism. Yet,
memes have no objective, material reality. By Dawkins' own metaphysics,
memes don't exist; they'll never show up under a microscope.
Paul:
That is why I said the MOQ gives the idea of memes a sound metaphysical
support. Non-physical reality is not a problem to the MOQ.
Paul quoted the dictionary:
> "Memes can be considered the unit of cultural evolution. Ideas can
> evolve in a way analogous to biological evolution. Some ideas survive
> better than others; ideas can mutate through, for example,
> misunderstandings; and two ideas can recombine to produce a new idea
> involving elements of each parent idea."
Platt said:
A nice theory. But where does DQ come in? Why is DQ necessary?
Paul:
I'm not saying Dawkins produced the MOQ. This is just a quote from the
dictionary definition of "meme."
Platt said:
And where do memes dwell if not in the minds of individuals?
Paul:
Memes are analogous to patterns - therefore the mind *is* the patterns,
nothing *contains* patterns.
Paul quoted the dictionary:
> "Use of the term connotes acceptance of the idea that in humans (and
> presumably other tool- and language-using sophonts) cultural evolution
by
> selection of adaptive ideas has become more important than biological
> evolution by selection of hereditary traits."
Platt said:
Who are "sophonts?" Note the use of the passive voice. Adaptive ideas
are selected. By whom? Humans and sophonts.
Paul:
In other words, who is doing the valuing? Bo asked this question and
Pirsig gave an answer in LILA'S CHILD:
Bo: "If the world is composed of values, then who is doing the valuing?"
Pirsig: "This is a subtle slip back into subject-object thinking. Values
have been converted to a kind of object in this sentence, and then the
question is asked, "If values are an object, then where is the subject?"
The answer is found in the MOQ sentence, "It is not Lila who has values,
it is values that have Lila." [LILA'S CHILD Note 76]
Platt said:
Which brings us right back to individuals.
Paul:
No. At the risk of kowtowing, here are another couple of quotes from
Pirsig:
In response to this from Platt:
"The history of man since then could be summarized as the struggle of
the I against the We, the Intellect against Society, a mighty struggle
that continues to this day."
Pirsig wrote:
"The word "I" like the word "self" is one of the trickiest words in any
metaphysics. Sometimes it is an object, a human body; sometimes it is a
subject, a human mind. I believe there are number of philosophic
systems, notably Ayn Rand's "Objectivism," that call the "I" or
"individual" the central reality. Buddhists say it is an illusion. So do
scientists. The MOQ says it is a collection of static patterns capable
of apprehending Dynamic Quality. I think that if you identify the "I"
with the intellect and nothing else you are taking an unusual position
that may need some defending."
And a couple more:
"The MOQ, as I understand it, denies any existence of a "self" that is
independent of inorganic, biological, social or intellectual patterns.
There is no "self" that contains these patterns. These patterns contain
the self. This denial agrees with both religious mysticism and
scientific knowledge. In Zen, there is reference to "big self" and
"small self." Small self is the patterns. Big self is Dynamic Quality."
[LILA'S CHILD Note 29]
"It's important to remember that both science and Eastern religions
regard "the individual" as an empty concept. It is literally a figure of
speech. If you start assigning a concrete reality to it, you will find
yourself in a philosophic quandary." [LILA'S CHILD Note 77]
I am finding it difficult to make you see this aspect of the MOQ,
perhaps I should just leave you in your "philosophical quandary." ;-)
Cheers
Paul
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