From: Joseph Maurer (jhmau@sbcglobal.net)
Date: Thu Aug 05 2004 - 17:30:02 BST
On 31 July 2004 5:13 PM Johnny writes to David:
Johnny:
You see, I don't think that mere contemplation and study, whether written in
language or illustrated or mimed, or just daydreamed about, makes a new
level above social patterns. I know that everyone here will say that I'm
wrong about this, and I don't deny that thinking and pursuing and developing
a field of thought is an intellectual activity, but I think that's not the
same thing as being a fourth level pattern.
I arrive at this awkward position because I am trying to make the
relationship of each level to the ones above and below the same kind of
relationship.
Hi Johnny, David and all,
joe: my view of MOQ evolution.
Bo Skutvik tried to describe an intellectual pattern. It was difficult
inasmuch as the inorganic, organic, or social patterns were not described in
differentiated-pattern terms. It is enough to say that everyone knows what I
mean when I talk about the different levels. I focus on the mystical
experience of DQ! I get into deeper water!
I go back to Pirsig's feeling of degeneracy when he made the division
between DQ and SQ. I say there is a mystical experience of DQ and a
degenerate mystical experience of a pattern of DQ. The pattern is SQ.
I want to talk about Newton's creation of the law of gravity. Was Newton
latching the dq of the inorganic order by an sq law of gravity? Is gravity
experienced mystically by a baby, and by all?
An organic, seeking food, has a purpose for action beyond gravity. The
organic order 'purpose' does not seem to be the gravity of the inorganic
order. Is 'purpose' an organic order pattern? 'Purpose' attracts arguments.
What purpose? Whose purpose? Life is anti-gravity. Is organic dq value
correctly interpreted as mystically experienced purpose? Memories of
Tennyson, and What Is So Rare as a Day in June.
The social order is a beginning for morality, three levels of activity,
three values of dq to discriminate. Positive and negative cancel out
producing neutral. Father, Mother, child, three? Morality! Existence! How a
pattern exists will determine its place. A mystical connection to existence
is necessary to determine order. IMO the social order begins a morality of
three? Existence is experienced mystically. Like purpose and gravity it is
never experienced outside a pattern. Is the mystical experience of existence
subjective experience? No! Subjective experience is a pattern sq. A pattern
experienced by the individual is created by value. Existence is part of that
value. Is the mystical experience of existence truth? Existence as a value
is indiscriminate. All things are possible. Truth is the value of order in
an individual pattern, not the value of order itself. Freedom!
Pirsig found a one-word metaphysics of 'quality' too limiting. Is there no
other mystical experience outside of gravity, purpose, and existence? Bodvar
Skutvik suggested s/o is a mystical experience of an intellectual order
pattern. I add 'unfinished', 'outside of existence', as another element to
the mystical experience of s/o. That is a huge tangle, 'unfinished s/o', to
be mystical experience. Can all intellectual patterns be described as sq
unfinished s/o? What about mathematics? What about coherence? What about
law? Subjective, objective does not describe intellectual patterns. The MOQ
is very specific about that!
IMO the activity created by an 'unfinished s/o' pattern is both inside
gravity, purpose and existence and outside of them? Is this the basis for
the intellectual order? If it is then the intellectual might be said to be
out of gravity, purpose and existence. The urge of unfinished in
intellectual mystical experience is dogmatized into a religion in the order
of existence by the intellectual order. Story-telling, faith, salesmanship,
creativity, the groove and many other activities embody this unfinished s/o
pattern!
I mystically distinguish dq value in four orders. IMO dq is not existence
outside these orders. Existence identifies the social order value. Dq in the
inorganic, the organic, the social, and the intellectual order are values in
those orders not a pool existing apart to be drawn from. IMO the existence
of dq and the existence of God are not in the same order. Dq is an
evolutionary value, God is an extension of social order value.
Mystical experience is not degenerate-mystical quality. The intellectual
order, though creative, is immoral when it denies mystical experience.
According to the moq intellectual is at the top of the moral order. IMO an
intellectual pattern forms out of mystical experience. In one sense I create
myself. I am never finished, and the 'unfinished' aspect of s/o always looks
to mystical experience for verification. Intersubjective agreement! As a
sentient I am an inorganic, organic, social, intellectual being. As an
intellectual pattern, I have work to do.
More thoughts! IMO evolution is from the inorganic order. Each order evolves
organic, social, and intellectual patterns in response to dq. Each order
latches dq from the one below. IMO only from the order of existence can
unfinished s/o evolve. Does this description of patterns help examine the
relationships of each level to the ones above and below?
I am unable to remember a published source for my formulation of these
patterns. I hope they are in the spirit of Robert Pirsig, Joseph Campbell,
and George Gurdjieff. As I reread this I am struck by the proofs for God's
existence from Aquinas. The unmoved mover, the supreme goal, the order of
existence, the creator the uncaused cause. Either I have been horribly
prejudiced by my education, or mystical DQ has been observed, and used well
or ill by many thinkers.
Self-awareness, individuality, is another question.
Joe Maurer
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