From: Valuemetaphysics@aol.com
Date: Sat Aug 07 2004 - 18:28:49 BST
Hi Mark M, and all.
On 7 Aug 2004 at 8:11, Valuemetaphysics@aol.com wrote:
The problem of evil dissolves in the MOQ because evil becomes a lower
evolutionary pattern dominating a higher evolutionary pattern. We may
even avoid the term evil and say that there is an absence of the Good?
msh says:
I agree that, in the MOQ, the POE isn't a problem, since evil, as
commonly understood, doesn't exist. In fact, this is one of the
reasons I am attracted to the MOQ.
But, notice, the word "evil" doesn't appear in my formulation of the
problem. "Suffering" takes its place. So, how about if instead of
"suffering" we use the phrase "immoral activity." When a boulder
breaks away from a hillside and crushes a child playing in the yard
below, we have an example of a lower pattern destroying a higher
pattern, which means an immoral action, according to the MOQ.
So, now, the argument goes something like this:
(P1) DQ is reality
(P2) DQ is maximum morality
(P3) Everything derives from DQ
(P4) Immoral actions occur
It seems that we have to deny at least one of these premises. No?
If so, which?
Mark 7-8-04: DQ and sq are always present. I think this is an important
aspect of how we may view the argument. Because DQ and sq are always present, i
asked myself for a long time how we may distinguish better patterns? The answer
is may be coherence.
Mark H? I am rather sick and tired of hearing myself say or write this word!
I hope you believe this? However, i feel it is worth considering?
Your argument may be modified:
(P1) DQ/sq is our static understanding of reality.
(P2) Coherence is maximum morality
(P3) Everything derives from unconceptualised DQ
(P4) Conceptualised Immoral actions occur
We may now introduce:
(P5) Conceptualised Immoral actions exhibit low coherence.
Mark M:
However!
Apparently, Japanese zero pilots may be said to have been Tao dive
bombers. This may sound ridiculous - a dark side to the Tao! But the
Tao has no evolutionary aspect. Therefore, it is possible to observe
the Way at a lower evolutionary level - for the zero dive bomber,
this is Human conflict driven by biological and social patterns - and
to observe the Way at high evolutionary levels.
msh says:
This is interesting. Do you believe, as Phaedrus in ZMM discovers,
that Quality and the Tao are one and the same? I think I do. But
does my version of the POE, above, suggest that there is an immoral
side to Quality/Tao? What you call the dark side?
Mark 7-8-04: Yes. This is made clear in ZMM.
In a private correspondence, Rick introduced me to the following:
"The Way gives birth to them and integrity maintains them."
Rick asked me if this was close to coherence, as he interpreted it this way:
"The Way (DQ gives birth to them and integrity (sq) maintains them."
But it may be interpreted this way:
"The Way (DQ - the one) gives birth to them (sq - the many) and integrity
(harmonious relationships between sq patterns - coherence) maintains them."
Immoral actions introduce disharmony, interrupt unity, are not aesthetically
pleasing, and promote genuine chaos, which is not to be equated with DQ. (DQ
is not chaos.) However, chaos is often thought of as an evil, and so must
therefore be examined and given an ontological status in the MOQ. As the opposite
of coherence, incoherence may fit the bill?
Thanks, Mark, for your thoughts.
As usual, any and all comments will be appreciated.
Best,
Mark Steven Heyman (msh)
Mark 7-8-04: You're welcome Mark. I am a very poor logician, so i rely on
your better abilities in the logic dept. Please forgive any sloppy reasoning on
my part?
All the best,
Mark
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