From: Ilya Korobkov (korobkov_ilya@mail.ru)
Date: Mon Sep 06 2004 - 08:39:29 BST
Hi David,
Your answer does help, really! I made a mistake trying to identify self
with static patterns or with the relationships between static patterns.
The ultimate self I had in mind during the discussion shouldn't and may
not be equated with patterned reality. - Did I understand you
correctly?
Thanks a lot,
Ilya
Monday, September 6, 2004, 3:28:43 AM, you wrote:
DB> Ilya Korobkov asked:
DB> How does it happen that in our ordinary life we don't feel ourselves as
DB> three separate entities - biological, social and intellectual, but feel
DB> ourselves as one whole self? If you say that the self is illusion, then I
DB> will ask, THE ILLUSION OF WHOM? ...WHERE or IN WHOM does this hierarchy
DB> exist? If there
DB> are no place and no one where or in whom the hierarchy exist then the very
DB> idea of hierarchy doesn't make any sense! We are exactly where we had
DB> started from.
DB> dmb butts in:
DB> The illusory nature of the self gets at the difference between Dynamic
DB> reality, the mystical reality, the reality of the Buddhas and ordinary,
DB> static, conventional reality. Any discussion of the real Self takes us
DB> beyond the ability of our language and concepts and is always bound to
DB> produce paradoxical or seemingly contradictory statements. I'd like to focus
DB> on the first question, which can largely be answered by developmental
DB> psychology, but let me just say that there are good answers to the more
DB> difficult question too. Its a question better answered by mystics and Zen
DB> masters than by any kind of conventional intellectual, so I'd recommend that
DB> approach.
DB> So why don't we feel ourselves as divided? First of all, I'd argue that we
DB> actually do experience the various levels all the time. I get hungry and
DB> sleepy every day and feel my biological self quite accutely every time I
DB> bump my head. I feel my social self when I show up for work on time, cash my
DB> check or drop my son off at school and I feel my intellectual self whenever
DB> I come here, open a decent book or magazine or otherwise enter the world of
DB> ideas. And who is it that is watching all that? This is where the great
DB> mystery comes into it. There are many names for this Witness but, again,
DB> this is the realm of mysticism, not developmental psychology. To get at this
DB> multi-layered self, Ken Wilber might be helpful...
DB> "...at each stage or level of development, the self is faced with certain
DB> tasks. How it negotiates those tasks determines whether it winds up
DB> relatively healthy or realtively disturbed. First and foremost, at each
DB> stage of development, the self starts out identified with that stage, and it
DB> must accomplish the tasks appropriate to that stage, whether learning toilet
DB> training or learning language. But in order for development to continue, the
DB> self has to let go of that stage, or disindentify with it, in order to make
DB> room for the new and higher stage. In other words, it has to DIFFERENTIATE
DB> from the lower stage, identify with the higher stage, and then integrate the
DB> higher with the lower."
DB> Notice how the process of development is basically described as a series of
DB> identities. Each stage brings a different world view and an expanded level
DB> of awareness moving from one's body, to larger and larger parts of society
DB> such as family, tribe, nation, and on to the intellectual self that can take
DB> all that in along with the worldviews from other times and cultures - and
DB> then even beyond intellectual levels too. In each case, assuming that growth
DB> is normal and healthy, the lower stages are included in the newer, higher
DB> identity. We don't, for example, forget how to use the toilet or the
DB> language when we move into the intellectual realm. Its just that we longer
DB> indentify our self with those things anylonger and in fact hardly can recall
DB> that we ever did. Its funny. Children who watch themselves preforming (on
DB> videotape) at lower levels are embarrassed and will often deny that it is
DB> really them on the tape. Many say they do not recall or try to invent
DB> excuses for the lower level behavior.
DB> Does that help?
DB> dmb
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