Re: MD Making sense of it (levels)

From: Steve Peterson (speterson@fast.net)
Date: Wed Jan 22 2003 - 01:30:30 GMT

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    Wim,

    You wrote:
    > I don't think it very useful to think of an individual (human) as either a
    > social or an intellectual pattern of value. Such an individual is a subject
    > or an object (depending on your point of view) and can be an element in all
    > kinds of patterns of value.

    > I think Pirsig isn't making things clearer by talking about
    > 'biological/social/intellectual entities. It would be better, I think, to
    > stress that thinking in terms of patterns of value is to be distinguished as
    > clearly as possible from thinking in terms of subjects and objects. Equating
    > objects with inorganic and biological patterns of value and subjects with
    > social and intellectual patterns of value (which Pirsig did explicitly in
    > his SODV-paper; see on www.moq.org) is only excusable as a crude rule of
    > thumb or short introduction to SOM for SO-thinkers. It's a fallacy, I
    > believe, to try to categorize 'things' (usually visualized as subject or
    > object) as a pattern of value of one of the levels.
    >
    > We should first be clear about what we mean with a 'pattern of value' (and
    > how it is to be distinguished from a subject or an object). Only then can we
    > categorize patterns of value.

    Steve: Could you help me make this distinction between subjects/objects and
    patterns of value. You've rightfully pointed out my SOM thinking before,
    but I don't know how to think differently.

    If we can't categorize 'things', then what can be categorized? Patterns,
    obviously, but I'm not sure what is meant by 'pattern' in the moq sense.
    Perhaps it probably needs to be an undefined term. Could you then give me
    some examples? Would the following qualify as patterns in your
    understanding: gravity, photosynthesis, sex, dancing, democracy, laws,
    terrorism?

    Thanks,

    Steve

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