From: jhmau (jhmau@sbcglobal.net)
Date: Thu Jan 23 2003 - 19:41:29 GMT
Hi Platt,
Platt: Pirsig makes it clear that moral judgments occur prior to any
> "reflection." The hot stove example is a case in point.
>
> "The low value that can be derived from sitting on a hot stove is
> obviously an experience even though it is not an object and even though
> it is not subjective. The low value comes first, then the subjective
> thoughts that include such things as stove and heat and pain come
> second. The value is the reality that brings the thoughts to mind." (7)
joe: I am sorry that I made the statement: "I do not agree that "moral
judgements" equal "instinctive response"". That statement can be read as
not consistent with a statement I frequently use, "the instinctive sensing
of reality." Thanks Platt! for showing me the quote from Persig that
emphasizes this discrepancy.
I do not conclude from the quote (7) that an instinct configured with
self-preservation (the avoidance of heat which can destroy the organism)
produces an awareness of the different dimensions necessary for moral
judgements. From quote (7) I conclude that actions as well as knowledge are
instinctual. For me Persig was emphasizing instinctual behavior and the
sentence "The value is the reality that brings the thoughts to mind" is
confusing in that reality and mind are equal and different. IMO the pattern
derived, "the subjective thoughts" in the quote flows from the action of a
different instinct than the instinct for movement.
A further thought: I do not interpret Persig's description of knowing
quality from "rhetoric" in ZAMM to be based upon the instinct for
self-preservation. The removal of a "block" from a student by having her
describe one brick semms to argue against the strong disciplining of the
instinct for self-preservation. I perceive the example of value from the
"hot stove", and the value from "rhetoric" to be different, a value for
action and a value for knowledge. Can one instinctive sense be configured
to sense quality, existence, and purpose? IMO it requires three instincts
to sense the different dimensions needed for levels of orders.
> > joe: my objection still stands, you have not answered it. Such an
> > instinctive sense so delineated demands deconstruction as does SOM.
>
>Platt: I don't understand what you mean by the "instinctive sense demands
> deconstruction as does SOM." The term "deconstruction" is a
> postmodernist term whereby statements are examined to reveal their
> underlying power base, usually attributed to Fascist white European
> males.
>
> Again, a quote from Pirsig confirms the instinctive moral sense:
>
> "First you sense the high or low quality, then you find reasons for it,
not
> the other way around." (20)
joe: i was using the term "deconstruction" in its sense of revealing
something underlying. Actions come fron an instinctive purpose. Knowledge
(patterns) come from a different instinct.
"First you sense the high or low quality". this statement seems to be
related to a goal. Self-preservation is from purpose and "high or low" is
the action. "High or low quality" is a statement of the existence of
patterns. This is a description of the interworking of plural instincts.
"Then you find the reasons for it, not the other way around.", what I do is
not what I wish to do! I wish to do it and I am not aware of it. In both
cases the action is done to me. The need for reflection again reinforces
the need for multiple instincts.
Platt
> We seem to be losing a common thread to our conversation and may
> be on different wavelengths. I'm emphasizing the instinctive character of
> morality. It's a key point of the MoQ.
joe: I am trying to describe the properties necessary for the instinctive
sensing of reality. An instinctive sense does not divide existence as in
SOM. Stating the negative does not help me much. I keep returning to a
division into instinctive senses (plural) in order to sense self-awareness
and moral judgements.
Joe
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