Re: MD Pure experience and the Kantian problematic

From: Ron Winchester (phaedruswolff@hotmail.com)
Date: Sat Jan 29 2005 - 19:04:18 GMT

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    Hence the MOQ includes both types of A/R distinction, the Kantian and the
    mystical. That is, it advocates a mystical program of putting intellectual
    SPOV to sleep in order to experience reality. So in this means of getting
    back into touch with reality, it also reinforces the Kantian duality between
    the conceptual and reality. As James, and most philosophies of mysticism
    have done since Kant.

    Hi Scott,

    Have the philosophies of mysticism recognized that experience is before
    subject and object, and therefore before conceptual and reality instead of
    between conceptual and reality?

    In your Kant problematic, is it a matter of placing subject before object,
    but still a matter of all experience coming from subject or object?

    Please forgive me as I am trying to undestand exactly what it is that is
    Kant problematic. My thinking here is that what is Kant problematic is SOM
    based to where the MOQ is not SOM based, but of course, I know that is much
    to simple.

    Or, am I just trashing another thread?

    Considering both distinctions of A/R to me is like a hillbillie that offers
    a distinction between both kinds of music; "County and Western" It works for
    them, but is a little out of date.

    Ron

    >From: "Scott Roberts" <jse885@localnet.com>
    >Reply-To: moq_discuss@moq.org
    >To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
    >Subject: Re: MD Pure experience and the Kantian problematic
    >Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 10:02:55 -0700
    >
    >All interested,
    >
    >My last post in the "Them pesky pragmatists" got kind of mixed up at the
    >end, so I want to try to clarify it a bit, but since the clarification
    >brings in the Kantian problematic, I'm putting it here.
    >
    >What I said is that mysticism, and religion in general, always contains an
    >appearance/reality distinction in the form of recognizing our current state
    >as one of ignorance or illusion, of being out of touch with Ultimate
    >Reality. Plato's A/R distinction can be seen in this way, as the parable of
    >the cave shows. A philosophy of mysticism will attempt to analyze the
    >nature
    >of the illusion, which means saying something about the Reality..
    >
    >Kant's A/R distinction is different. He says that there is a reality which
    >our conceptual structure turns into appearances, and that we can never know
    >what that reality is in itself. He also says that that conceptual structure
    >is fixed and necessary, the Categories, e.g., of space, time, causality,
    >etc.
    >
    >The MOQ differs from Kant in that it does not assume that the conceptual
    >structure is fixed and necessary, but keeps the idea that it is conceptual
    >structure (static intellectual patterns of value) that cuts us off from
    >reality (DQ). The MOQ claim that DQ is "pre-intellectual" is a Kantian
    >pattern. The main conceptual structure that produces non-real appearances
    >is
    >the subject/object form.
    >
    >Hence the MOQ includes both types of A/R distinction, the Kantian and the
    >mystical. That is, it advocates a mystical program of putting intellectual
    >SPOV to sleep in order to experience reality. So in this means of getting
    >back into touch with reality, it also reinforces the Kantian duality
    >between the conceptual and reality. As James, and most philosophies of
    >mysticism have done since Kant.
    >
    >- Scott
    >
    >
    >
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