From: max demian (oikoumenist@hotmail.com)
Date: Fri Apr 01 2005 - 20:03:23 BST
All,
For what it matters, I find myself agreeing with Ian. That said, I think
there are several points about rock or punk music that need to be
remembered. Rock music has an entirely different agenda than classical
music. Their priorities are different and they really should be judged
according to their own musical project and standards. Yet, if you want to
equate them, maybe it would be better to have a different system than just
whether they are degenerate or not. Maybe, (bringing Nietzsche back into the
picture) it would be better to judge according to intent. Rather than
judging as to whether music is good or bad it could be more worth while to
ask if they’re intent is noble or base. Some music is completely
base—reactive and negating. Others are more noble—active and affirming. Base
music is a reaction to previous musics. Noble music uses past music as a
spring board to launch itself into places where music hasn’t gone before. In
this case, all genres, classical or punk, contain both. Granted, drawing
such distinctions is never as clear cut as I am proposing. However, instead
of judging music in accordance with its ‘quality’ of effects, can it be
judged according to its ‘quantity’ of affects? where quality is determined
by comparison to past musics and quantity is based on force and power, its
affective capacity. One is determined, the other determines. (It is entirely
possible I am saying this all wrong. I am drawing on some readings Nietzsche
by Gilles Deleuze. I am wondering if the same system can be of some use when
drawing a distinction between static and dynamic quality. I thought it might
be useful here.)
Currently I am obsessed by the music of _Godspeed You Black Emperor!_. It is
hard to categorize this music which is why I bring it up. It is acclaimed as
‘post-modern,’ ‘post-rock’ and ‘post-punk.’ It is described as classically
structured, layered, sophisticated, instrumental compositions. GPYBE! draws
strength from everything from rock to classical musics, and yet, it is not a
reaction against them but takes what they give and pushes music further. At
the same time their music points to what Ian said about Pirsig’s observation
of ‘excesses.’ With music and very, very few lyrics, they hope to draw
attention to, “the decay of a bloated capitalist culture, a world’s
spiritual crisis, a planet in precipitous decline.” They hope to draw
attention to the “gluttony of human-kind.” They are pro-active yet don’t
sacrifice musical integrity. Content doesn’t overshadow their musical form
nor vise versa. A very interesting band in regard to this thread.
Peace,
Max
>From: ian glendinning <psybertron@gmail.com>
>Reply-To: moq_discuss@moq.org
>To: moq_discuss@moq.org
>Subject: Re: MD Nihilism (Punk)
>Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 11:52:44 +0800
>
>Platt, Poot,
>
>Look, I'm repeating myself too ...
>
>Musical taste is a matter of taste, but its aesthetic / artistic /
>biological qualities can all be anlaysed if we wish ...
>
>We seem to have lost the thread in here concerning the biological /
>sexual "beat" of (some) rock, being the degenerate thing referred to.
>That was an aspect I was prepared to analyse and debate. At least it
>starts with some grain of truth, unlike the pointless assertion that
>rock per se is low quality in some sense.
>
>Yet again however Platt is quoted as saying
>"If you think rock is artistically equivalent to the symphonic music
>of Bach, Brahms and Beethoven, the chances of your agreeing with
>Pirsig's idea of a declining society is slim indeed."
>
>I say - Platt you are a master rhetorician, but you do talk twaddle in
>your naughty non-sequitors. Yes I can see artistic equivalence in all
>genres of musical art - classical symphonic as well as "post-modern"
>rock - some is higher quality than others. But - that has no bearing
>whatesoever on the fact that I do indeed disagree with Pirsig's
>apparent assertion that our morality (in general) is going to the
>dogs. He was making an observation about the excesses of hippiedom at
>the time, and the same could be true about the excesses of any
>lifestyle movement, the excesses of logical positivism or scientific
>fundamentalism, the excesses of anything in fact. (Cue another debate
>on Nietzsche, again - no gain without pain etc, no omelettes without
>breaking eggs, etc Creative destruction, etc.)
>
>Open your eyes, look up to the skies, and see ...
>I see a little silhouette of a man ...
>
>(Now that was pretentious twaddle BTW, but harmless twaddle I think
>you'll find.)
>
>Ian.
>
>
>On Ap
>r 1, 2005 9:10 AM, Matt poot <mattpoot@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > Hi Platt,
> >
> > you said (that is to say, that you say) : Of course, one's evaluation of
>art
> > is largely a matter of personal taste. To debate about it is hopeless if
> > your opponent doesn't implicitly
> > recognize any difference in its various forms. That said, there still
> > remains high and low quality taste, just as there are high and low
>quality
> > ideas, a statement you apparently agree with your reference to "artistic
> > sensitivity."
> >
> > I reply now: I agree with you. I'll also add, that when one has a well
> > formed opinion, based on actual trial, rather than general assumption,
>this
> > would be as close to accurate on the subject as you could get.
> >
> > later, you add: I can only surmise that this refusal to engage means
> > there's
> > little agreement with Pirsig's premise that societal morality is going
> > down hill. If you think rock is artistically equivalent to the symphonic
> > music of Bach, Brahms and Beethoven, the chances of your agreeing with
> > Pirsig's idea of a declining society is slim indeed.
> >
> > so, I say now: If you can surmise, that all rock is generic, and not as
> > artistically qualitative as the fugues (and preludes) of bach,
>symphonies of
> > beethoven, or operas of Wagner, than I really do need to inform you,
>that
> > there is a much larger variation than you may have possibly selected as
>an
> > ongoing repertoire. Do not also assume that simpler harmonic
>arrangements
> > equate to lower quality music. Also, it is important to factor in the
> > significant changes in lyrical , melodic, and rhythmic aspects of the
>music.
> > To my knowledge, even the musical genius of mozart's music can be
>compared
> > to the likes of a group such as Radiohead, which has some exceptionally
> > complex music, that is in the "mainstream" audience.
> >
> > P.S. Just a little note here, I am not aware of any symphonic material
> > composed by J.S Bach. Unless your referring to Carl Emanuel's.
> >
> > I again, urge you to listen to music of the likes of: Yes, and King
>Crimson
> > (my fav two picks) for excellent examples of extremely talented and
>gifted
> > musicians, forming a music to a level of dynamics that is not found the
>the
> > highly structured music of Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, and many other
> > "classical" composers.
> >
> > Also, again, you may watch Pink Floyds "the wall" . although I keep
> > repeating myself....
> >
> > If anyone wants, I'll send them copies of "The Wall (DvD) " or any CD's
> > which you may have an otherwise difficult time at acquiring($$$).
> >
> > I hope you've read this far.
> >
> > poot
> >
> > MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
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> >
>
>
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