From: Platt Holden (pholden@sc.rr.com)
Date: Mon Apr 11 2005 - 03:38:32 BST
MSH writes:
> The point I was making is that there is evidence in support of their
> assumptions and, therefore, their assumptions are not faith-based.
> And don't see how anyone can reasonably conclude that I have any
> objection to principles based on religious faith. People can and
> will believe whatever they like. Who am I to object? I'm arguing
> that scientific assumptions and religious assumptions are
> fundamentally different kinds of assumptions, made for very different
> reasons.
And I am arguing the assumptions are of the same kind made for the same
reasons, i.e., to attain truth, goodness and beauty in our lives.
> platt:
> Well, you brought up the notion that religious beliefs are fear-based
> and fear- driven in response to Ham's question about the belief
> systems.
>
> msh:
> Yes, I think that's true to some extent.
>
> platt:
> So it's not off point at all. It goes to the question of motive. Do you
> doubt that dictators brutalize large portions of thier citizenry in the
> name of morality?
>
> msh says:
> It goes to the question of motive? Do I have to come over there and
> hide your TV clicker?
Do I have to bear the brunt of your non-sequitors?
> Dictators (as well as plutocrats like Bush and company) often act in the
> NAME of morality, but the real reason is fear of losing their power. But
> what does the behavior of dictators have to do with the assumptions made by
> scientists? This conversation is becoming quite surreal, not that there's
> anything wrong with that...
Your assigned fear as the motive for religious faith and thus found
religious faith useless. I'm merely pointing out that it's fear of those
who profess religious faith that motivates godless dictators to assume
moral superiority, at the point of a gun, and that it was your "useless"
religious faith that has helped to bring them down. In other words,
religious assumptions can be as "pragmatic" as scientific ones, for
nations as well as individuals.
> platt now ridicules Paul Davies, who's never said an unkind word
> about platt:
A bit off subject wouldn't you say?
> If you read the entire article you'll notice the explanation Davies
> offers depends on events which are "emergent," "spontaneous,
> "uncaused,"and "uncertain" which is tantamount to saying, "We don't
> know."
>
> msh says:
> Who doesn't know? Maybe you don't know, but Davies quite clearly
> DOES understand the nature of such events.
Yes, he understands they happen "spontaneously," like a magician pulling
rabbits out of a hat.
> And he presents
> scientific evidence for his belief, including data and mathematics
> that can be evaluated by others. So, whether he's right or wrong,
> his belief rests on logical proof and material evidence.
To say something happens "spontaneously" is hardly logical proof based on
material evidence. "Spontaneous" is a descriptive, not an explanatory
concept. Since one can easily believe the universe didn't just emerge
"spontaneously" from nothing, those who do must be relying on faith, no
matter how they try to cover it up with scientific sounding patois.
> Faith-
> based beliefs are held without evidence, sometimes in spite of
> evidence to the contrary. If you don't agree with this then you
> simply do not understand the meaning of the word "faith."
There you go again with your "evidence" which, unless I've misread you
completely, is evidence restricted to that acceptable to science. The
evidence of one's own experience, like someone convinced of being "born
again," counts for nothing in your view I presume. Yet many of those
people of faith have done many pragmatically wonderful things to enhance
life, IMHO, just as scientists with their faith in measurement and
mathematics have done. Religious and science believers do not share the
same faith. But, whenever there are assumptions made, faith enters the
picture, IMHO.
Best,
Platt
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