From: ian glendinning (psybertron@gmail.com)
Date: Mon Apr 11 2005 - 08:45:23 BST
Mark, it was not a matter of "how well educated" - more a matter of
being specifically well qualified to speak as "an engineer" -
professional experience, with peer authority, not academic
qualification. That would be childish, I agree.
I saw the insult the other way - towards engineers, but insult was not
my intent, so apologies for any offence.
I was being serious in my point - science (and engineering) is not
"faith-based" in anything like the way "religion" is. It's
understanding and explanation based. Your caricature of "pragmatism"
still seems just that.
Ian.
On Apr 10, 2005 9:08 PM, Mark Steven Heyman
< > wrote:
> Ian,
>
> All of my thoughts in this thread are directed toward the argument
> that started it, which is about whether or not scientific assumptions
> are faith-based and, therefore, no different than religious
> assumptions. Please try to keep this in mind before hitting me with
> your ridiculous, half-baked diatribes.
>
> Furthermore, I find your reference to your level of education a
> rather childish appeal to authority. I've rigorously avoided
> referring to my own credentials in these discussions for just this
> reason, but it would appear that you are about half as well educated
> as I. Now, doesn't that sound silly?
>
> If you don't have time to carefully contribute to this discussion, at
> least, please, tone down the insults.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mark Steven Heyman (msh)
> --
> InfoPro Consulting - The Professional Information Processors
> Custom Software Solutions for Windows, PDAs, and the Web Since 1983
> Web Site: http://www.infoproconsulting.com
>
> "The shadows that a swinging lamp will throw,
> We come from nowhere and to nothing go."
>
> On 10 Apr 2005 at 13:49, ian glendinning wrote:
>
> Matt, Sam,
>
> sam said:
> If a scientist or engineer 'doesn't really care whether or not their
> belief is correct' then they don't really care about the outcome.
>
> msh replied:
> No. The outcome is ALL they care about. They wanna land that
> spacecraft, complete that circuit, build that bridge. What they
> don't care about is the literal truth of their assumptions. In
> fact, they care so little about the "truth" of the assumptions that,
> if the assumptions get in the way of orbiting the satellite, they
> will
> DROP the assumptions. This is pragmatism in action.
>
> If either of you actually believe either of those statements, then
> you
> are sadly misguided by a gross caricature of reality.
>
> I am a professional engineer BSc(Eng) MIMechE, WWeldI, for over 30
> years, and an MBA qualified experienced manager in industry, and I
> can
> assure you few engineers (or scientists, or managers) have such a
> narrow, blinkered, careless, thoughtless view of the world. You are
> creating a disagreement where there is none and spreading the false
> memes in the process.
>
> Get real. Give someone other than philosophers credit. At least Sam
> started with "if" and is therefore not wrong in what he says in that
> sentence.
>
> The "spacecraft landing" is only a "part" of the outcome - go read
> Pirsig and his motorcycle maintenance analogies to understand good,
> quality engineering (or good, quality anything). Go read my review of
> Dawkins and the 10,000 rivets flying in close formation thanks to a
> plane-load of social anthropologists. Why make such a colourful world
> so black and white ? Repeat after me "There is no dichotomy".
>
> Ian
>
> On Apr 10, 2005 10:40 AM, Mark Steven Heyman
> < > wrote:
>
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