From: ian glendinning (psybertron@gmail.com)
Date: Thu Apr 28 2005 - 04:14:52 BST
Platt,
You asked
"How come you feel the need supply reinforcements?"
I say, because your contributions are the kind of reactionary extreme
politically motivated twaddle that should only be hanfled with
overwhelming force. Argument is clearly pointless; worse, you seem to
enjoy it.
Ian
On 4/28/05, Mark Steven Heyman <markheyman@infoproconsulting.com> wrote:
> > On 25 Apr 2005 at 18:27, Platt Holden wrote to Arlo:
> >
> > Christianity never "wielded power" for 2000 years. That's what I
> > mean by your distortion of history.
> >
> > msh says:
> > A slight exaggeration perhaps, but hardly a distortion. History is
> > distorted when the fact that millions of innocent people have been
> > killed by the USG in the last 150 years, much of this imperialist
> > mayhem carried out well before there was anything like communism to
> > "defend" us from, is sort of jammed down the memory hole by
> > apologists for US policy.
>
> platt:
> Evidence? And not from Chomsky, Zinn or one of your other leftist
> gurus, please.
>
> msh says:
> I've given you tons of verifiable evidence over the last year. And
> you won't believe it no matter who says it, as long as it contradicts
> your childlike view of American foreign policy. But here's something
> from a reporter who witnessed the US invasion of the Philippines in
> 1901, this was before reporters were "embedded" with military units
> and were able to write about what they actually saw:
>
> "Our men have killed to exterminate men, women, children, prisoners
> and captives, active insurgents and suspected people from lads of 10
> up.... Our soldiers have pumped salt water into men to "make them
> talk," and have taken prisoners people who held up their hands and
> peacefully surrendered, and an hour later. . . stood them on a bridge
> and shot them down one by one, to drop into the water below and float
> down, as examples to those who found their bullet-loaded corpses."
>
> - Philadelphia Ledger newspaper in 1901, from its Manila
> [Philippines] correspondent during the US war with Spain for the
> control of the Philippines
>
> > platt to arlo:
> > Your assumption is that all governments, whether Christian or
> > secular, are guilty of initiating brutality on a scale equal to
> > modern secular communism. That's patently false.
> >
> > msh says:
> > No, it's demonstrably true. Turn off Bill O'Reilley and Rush
> > Limbaugh, and read a book, will ya? Besides, the brutality of
> > Stalin was no more about atheism than the US slaughter of millions
> > in SE Asia was about Christianity.
>
> Are you referring to the U.S. vs. Japan in World War II? It would
> help if you could be specific and cite evidence rather than spew
> broad generalizations.
>
> msh says:
> Last I heard, Japan hadn't been moved to Southeast Asia. Would a
> quote from Richard Nixon be specific enough?
>
> "The only place you and I disagree . . . is with regard to the
> bombing. You're so goddamned concerned about the civilians, and I (in
> contrast) don't give a damn. I don't care.". . . "I'd rather use the
> nuclear bomb. . . Does that bother you? I just want you to think
> big."
>
> - Richard Nixon to Secretary of State Henry Kissinger on the
> Watergate tapes
>
>
> > platt misconstrues arlo:
> > Oh my God. You compare Bush to Stalin, Mao, Castro, Pol Pot?
> > That's worse than DMB lumping Pat Robertson with Hitler. Have you
> no
> > understanding of the checks and balances that prevent any American
> > president from attaining unbridled power?
> >
> > msh says:
> > This is so incredibly naïve that I, for once, am speechless. This
> > is a sixth grader's understanding of the American political system.
>
> platt:
> Why don't you give us the first grader's understanding then?
>
> msh laughs:
> All right. That's so funny I'm gonna let you off the hook....
>
> > but platt drives on:
> > Can you not grasp the reality that in order to attain Marx's goal
> of
> > eliminating economic inequalities that a concentration of political
> > power is necessary, providing an open invitation to dictators?
> >
> > msh says:
> > Again, this is about 180 degrees out of phase. A far greater
> > concentration of political and military power is required to keep
> > and expand the economic inequalities.
>
> platt:
> I thought you guys were against free market capitalism because it
> caused economic inequalities and want to use the coercive power of
> government to redistribute income in the name of "social justice."
>
> msh:
> I don't know if I'm against free-market capitalism; no such socio-
> economic system exists. I have seen the great disparities of wealth
> and privilege created by state-supported capitalist systems, however,
> and yes, I would like to do something about it. But I don't think
> I'll have to come and take your Buick at gunpoint. So relax.
>
> > platt, tirelessly:
> > Your approval of Marx suggest support for dictatorship since his
> > vision could not possibly be carried out except by a totalitarian
> > government, as the history of the 20th century proves. .
> >
> > msh says:
> > Saying Stalin was influenced by Marx is like saying GWB is
> > influenced by Jesus. If you actually had some understanding of the
> > history of the 20th century, you would know that there have been
> > successful non- totalitarian implementations of communist theory,
> > always on a small scale because if there is any possibility of
> > larger success such implementations immediately become targets of
> US
> > aggression.
>
> ham:
> Where, pray tell, are these small scale "implementations of communist
> theory?" Cuba perhaps?
>
> msh says:
> Actually, Cuba, despite its dictatorship, has far better health,
> education, and other services for it's poor than does the US, the
> wealthiest most privileged country on earth. And this was
> accomplished and maintained in the face of now more than 40 years of
> American embargoes and other more directly violent acts of terrorism.
>
> But I wasn't thinking of Cuba. Cuba, like Nicaragua in the 80's,
> was too big a success to be left free of American aggression. I was
> thinking of the Mondragon Cooperatives in Spain; or the kibbutzim
> founded 40 years before the establishment of the State of Israel.
>
> platt:
> And if they really exist and are so wonderful, how come you're not
> there?
>
> msh says:
> Cause I want to stay here and bug people like you.
>
> msh said:
> Why is a brutal implementation of a pseudo--communist system
> sufficient for you to detest communism? The pseudo--capitalist
> system best represented by the US has its own clear record of
> genocide, and, far from fearing this system, you apparently LOVE
> it. I think this goes a long way toward explaining why the memory
> hole is so important to you.
>
> platt:
> Your "clear record of genocide" is nothing compared to the record set
> by your communist friends. Have you no sense of proportion?
>
> msh says:
> You mean the mass murderers who called themselves Communists. They
> weren't my friends. So 3 million you can live, but 6 or 10 million
> is just TOO much?
>
> Best,
> Mark Steven Heyman (msh)
>
> --
> InfoPro Consulting - The Professional Information Processors
> Custom Software Solutions for Windows, PDAs, and the Web Since 1983
> Web Site: http://www.infoproconsulting.com
>
> " ... the United States, for generations, has sustained two parallel
> but opposed states of mind about military atrocities and human
> rights: one of U.S. benevolence, generally held by the public, and
> the other of ends-justify-the-means brutality sponsored by
> counterinsurgency specialists. Normally the specialists carry out
> their actions in remote locations with little notice in the national
> press. That allows the public to sustain its faith in a just America,
> while hard-nosed security and economic interests are still protected
> in secret. " -
>
> Robert Parry, an acclaimed investigative reporter and author who will
> never be a guest on Rush Limbaugh.
>
>
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