From: Mark Steven Heyman (markheyman@infoproconsulting.com)
Date: Thu Apr 28 2005 - 02:00:00 BST
> On 25 Apr 2005 at 18:27, Platt Holden wrote to Arlo:
>
> Christianity never "wielded power" for 2000 years. That's what I
> mean by your distortion of history.
>
> msh says:
> A slight exaggeration perhaps, but hardly a distortion. History is
> distorted when the fact that millions of innocent people have been
> killed by the USG in the last 150 years, much of this imperialist
> mayhem carried out well before there was anything like communism to
> "defend" us from, is sort of jammed down the memory hole by
> apologists for US policy.
platt:
Evidence? And not from Chomsky, Zinn or one of your other leftist
gurus, please.
msh says:
I've given you tons of verifiable evidence over the last year. And
you won't believe it no matter who says it, as long as it contradicts
your childlike view of American foreign policy. But here's something
from a reporter who witnessed the US invasion of the Philippines in
1901, this was before reporters were "embedded" with military units
and were able to write about what they actually saw:
"Our men have killed to exterminate men, women, children, prisoners
and captives, active insurgents and suspected people from lads of 10
up.... Our soldiers have pumped salt water into men to "make them
talk," and have taken prisoners people who held up their hands and
peacefully surrendered, and an hour later. . . stood them on a bridge
and shot them down one by one, to drop into the water below and float
down, as examples to those who found their bullet-loaded corpses."
- Philadelphia Ledger newspaper in 1901, from its Manila
[Philippines] correspondent during the US war with Spain for the
control of the Philippines
> platt to arlo:
> Your assumption is that all governments, whether Christian or
> secular, are guilty of initiating brutality on a scale equal to
> modern secular communism. That's patently false.
>
> msh says:
> No, it's demonstrably true. Turn off Bill O'Reilley and Rush
> Limbaugh, and read a book, will ya? Besides, the brutality of
> Stalin was no more about atheism than the US slaughter of millions
> in SE Asia was about Christianity.
Are you referring to the U.S. vs. Japan in World War II? It would
help if you could be specific and cite evidence rather than spew
broad generalizations.
msh says:
Last I heard, Japan hadn't been moved to Southeast Asia. Would a
quote from Richard Nixon be specific enough?
"The only place you and I disagree . . . is with regard to the
bombing. You're so goddamned concerned about the civilians, and I (in
contrast) don't give a damn. I don't care.". . . "I'd rather use the
nuclear bomb. . . Does that bother you? I just want you to think
big."
- Richard Nixon to Secretary of State Henry Kissinger on the
Watergate tapes
> platt misconstrues arlo:
> Oh my God. You compare Bush to Stalin, Mao, Castro, Pol Pot?
> That's worse than DMB lumping Pat Robertson with Hitler. Have you
no
> understanding of the checks and balances that prevent any American
> president from attaining unbridled power?
>
> msh says:
> This is so incredibly naïve that I, for once, am speechless. This
> is a sixth grader's understanding of the American political system.
platt:
Why don't you give us the first grader's understanding then?
msh laughs:
All right. That's so funny I'm gonna let you off the hook....
> but platt drives on:
> Can you not grasp the reality that in order to attain Marx's goal
of
> eliminating economic inequalities that a concentration of political
> power is necessary, providing an open invitation to dictators?
>
> msh says:
> Again, this is about 180 degrees out of phase. A far greater
> concentration of political and military power is required to keep
> and expand the economic inequalities.
platt:
I thought you guys were against free market capitalism because it
caused economic inequalities and want to use the coercive power of
government to redistribute income in the name of "social justice."
msh:
I don't know if I'm against free-market capitalism; no such socio-
economic system exists. I have seen the great disparities of wealth
and privilege created by state-supported capitalist systems, however,
and yes, I would like to do something about it. But I don't think
I'll have to come and take your Buick at gunpoint. So relax.
> platt, tirelessly:
> Your approval of Marx suggest support for dictatorship since his
> vision could not possibly be carried out except by a totalitarian
> government, as the history of the 20th century proves. .
>
> msh says:
> Saying Stalin was influenced by Marx is like saying GWB is
> influenced by Jesus. If you actually had some understanding of the
> history of the 20th century, you would know that there have been
> successful non- totalitarian implementations of communist theory,
> always on a small scale because if there is any possibility of
> larger success such implementations immediately become targets of
US
> aggression.
ham:
Where, pray tell, are these small scale "implementations of communist
theory?" Cuba perhaps?
msh says:
Actually, Cuba, despite its dictatorship, has far better health,
education, and other services for it's poor than does the US, the
wealthiest most privileged country on earth. And this was
accomplished and maintained in the face of now more than 40 years of
American embargoes and other more directly violent acts of terrorism.
But I wasn't thinking of Cuba. Cuba, like Nicaragua in the 80's,
was too big a success to be left free of American aggression. I was
thinking of the Mondragon Cooperatives in Spain; or the kibbutzim
founded 40 years before the establishment of the State of Israel.
platt:
And if they really exist and are so wonderful, how come you're not
there?
msh says:
Cause I want to stay here and bug people like you.
msh said:
Why is a brutal implementation of a pseudo--communist system
sufficient for you to detest communism? The pseudo--capitalist
system best represented by the US has its own clear record of
genocide, and, far from fearing this system, you apparently LOVE
it. I think this goes a long way toward explaining why the memory
hole is so important to you.
platt:
Your "clear record of genocide" is nothing compared to the record set
by your communist friends. Have you no sense of proportion?
msh says:
You mean the mass murderers who called themselves Communists. They
weren't my friends. So 3 million you can live, but 6 or 10 million
is just TOO much?
Best,
Mark Steven Heyman (msh)
-- InfoPro Consulting - The Professional Information Processors Custom Software Solutions for Windows, PDAs, and the Web Since 1983 Web Site: http://www.infoproconsulting.com " ... the United States, for generations, has sustained two parallel but opposed states of mind about military atrocities and human rights: one of U.S. benevolence, generally held by the public, and the other of ends-justify-the-means brutality sponsored by counterinsurgency specialists. Normally the specialists carry out their actions in remote locations with little notice in the national press. That allows the public to sustain its faith in a just America, while hard-nosed security and economic interests are still protected in secret. " - Robert Parry, an acclaimed investigative reporter and author who will never be a guest on Rush Limbaugh. MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org Mail Archives: Aug '98 - Oct '02 - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/ Nov '02 Onward - http://www.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/summary.html MD Queries - horse@darkstar.uk.net To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at: http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
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