From: skutvik@online.no
Date: Fri Jul 01 2005 - 12:21:50 BST
Paul and Apostles
28 June you wrote:
(after I had said that LILA presents the intellectual level as
SOL, mostly as its objective part; as knowledge as science in
other words the "objective" half of SOM).
> Paul: Generally, yes, but not entirely. I think LILA certainly
> presents the intellectual level as such human efforts as science and
> philosophy with an over-riding value of truth. Now I agree that most
> philosophies and perhaps most scientists see truth in terms of
> correspondence but there are also the coherence, deflationary,
> pragmatist, charitable etc. philosophies of truth, so truth and
> objectivity are not synonymous.
I asked if you see that LILA presents as science and knowledge
and you say generally yes and that's enough
> And as I said in a recent post, Pirsig wants to *repudiate*, not
> endorse, the epistemological use of S/O, whilst keeping the
> intellectual value of truth.
Anyway, when speaking about the intellectual level it's invariably
about science and its unjustified claim of being independent of
society (what he "wants" I leave to you to fathom) He points to
the flaw in the "objective" part of SOM (which is intellect) why not
pointing to the "subjective" flaw?
> Paul: Intellect is *not* the epistemological "O", so its
> epistemological "S" counterpart is not there either. This Greek
> menace is only haunting you.
Not that again! We have ended up with Greece the intellectual
watershed, thus it is SOM that Pirsig addresses when speaking
about the intellectual level. How many times have you been
forced to admit this, but come again and again with the same
statements.
> Paul: Minus its metaphysical quality *and* its epistemological
> quality i.e. SOM's objective half is not kept as the intellectual
> level at all, this is your doing.
Yes, intellect is SOM minus its metaphysical quality, but no more
minuses! And yes it was I who started this Sisyphus job of
bringing the MOQ back to its roots.
> Epistemological objectivity is
> redescribed in LILA as the moral attempt to control social and
> biological values with respect to the development of intellectual
> patterns.
How complicated can you make it? It's about the the level
struggle; the upper trying to liberate itself from the lower, the
lower not wanting to let go. In this case intellect claiming
independency from society, presenting itself as objectivity while
blaming its parent social level for being "superstitious", "ignorant"
and everything bad.
Regarding the MOQ the roles are reversed, even if it (MOQ) is
no level it is the system that wants to degrade intellect to a sub-
set and intellect doesn't want that.
> Paul: Idealism is left behind when one considers that ideas are
> produced by value -- they are contingent on value.
Ideas? Is that intellectual patterns? But there aren't any free-
floating ideas it's always ideas ABOUT something and intellect is
S/O-ideas. They are definitely contingent on value ...on social
value.
> In this new context,
> one of the most valuable ideas, one of the beliefs that will
> simply not allow one to arbitrarily give it up because of its
> constantly experienced value, is that there are plenty of patterns
> that are causally independent of, and antecedent to one's beliefs.
Here "beliefs" have become intellectual patterns? But this
argument is merely intellect's "subject over object" and ....for the
umpteenth time: The MOQ does not have any affinity for this.
What if there comes along another belief that believes that the
MOQ - level and all - is rubbish?
> To
> repeat a phrase I've said to you before -- objects are cultural
> constructs but culture is a value construct.
If you by "objects" mean the inorganic level and by "cultural"
mean the social and intellectual levels I am lost. Where is this to
be found? I thought objects were inorganic and biological ... etc.
but everything seems possible now.
Bo
MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
Mail Archives:
Aug '98 - Oct '02 - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
Nov '02 Onward - http://www.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/summary.html
MD Queries -
To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.5 : Fri Jul 01 2005 - 13:10:37 BST