From: skutvik@online.no
Date: Fri Jul 01 2005 - 12:21:41 BST
Too late of course, the thread has already developed, but here's
my take
Welcome Reiner and hello Mike.
Reinier:
> Pirsig states that everything is quality. The MOQ is all about quality and
> nothing about substance. If we totally abandon SOM (and I'm all for that)
> what would be the consequence for space, and I mean geometric space? I'veen
> come to the conclusion that geometric space cannot exist because of
> contradictions even in SOM itself. (I'll explain those if necessary) But
> from the MOQ point of view there isn't even a need for geometric space,
> because there is no substance to take up space.
> I have the same feelings about 'time' but I'll go into that later.
Mike:
> My view is that the concept of geometric space can and sh space andould be
> retained. We may have replaced "substance" with "inorganic patterns of
> value", but this doesn't mean abandoning commonly undertood concepts
> such as "space". In the MOQ, extension in space is simply a property
> of inorganic and biological patterns of value.
I agree with Mike, but maybe in a sense that he won't approve of.
Time and space - the scientific kind - are intellectual patterns and
because the intellectual level is SOM (stripped of its
metaphysical qualities) we will of course keep them. I would like
to see anyone capable of "removing" them ;-)
But the non-scientific time and space did not come into being
along with intellect? Pre-intellect people surely followed the
heavenly bodies' rhythm and certainly called this rhythm
something. Regarding space I guess they more or less took it as
given, there was no question of where the universe ends and
such science-induced problems.
Again Reinier:
> If we totally abandon SOM (and I'm all for that)
> what would be the consequence for space, and I mean geometric space?
SOM is abandoned when the "M" is taken over by the MOQ, but I
hope you don't mean that the S/O divide is to be abandoned,
because that is the intellectual level IMO? Geometric space as
different from ordinary space? You must elaborate.
> I'veen
> come to the conclusion that geometric space cannot exist because of
> contradictions even in SOM itself. (I'll explain those if necessary)
Yes, as a metaphysics SOM is contradictory, but as a static value
it is great.
> But
> from the MOQ point of view there isn't even a need for geometric space,
> because there is no substance to take up space.
Even if I agree that inorganic patterns aren't substance this gets a
bit too weird.
> I have the same feelings about 'time' but I'll go into that later.
I would rather say that time and space in themselves (not the
scientific - maybe this is your "geometric" - kind) are as much
inorganic patterns as particles and forces.
Mike continued:
> What we can and should abandon is the idea that _only_ things that are
> extended in space are real. Space is a useful concept, and I don't see
> what is to be gained from abandoning it completely.
You Mike may have given up on following our "intellectual mess"
dispute, but I don't think that SOM is solely about objects in
space (matter) but just as much about spaceless mind. And
consequently, the MOQ which rejects SOM rejects both ...as
metaphysically valid, only the DQ/SQ value configuration is valid.
> The question of time in the MOQ seems somewhat different, because
> "time" (as the word is commonly understood) seems to be bound up with
> _all_ value, and can't be confined to the inorganic and biological
> levels.
The MOQ says that each upper level builds on the former, thus
even if time and space originates at the inorganic level they
follow the Quality evolution into biology and society and intellect
...where they got iscientifically institutionalized.
Bo
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