From: Mark Steven Heyman (markheyman@infoproconsulting.com)
Date: Fri Jul 01 2005 - 17:22:56 BST
> maxwell: Spoken as one who feels a poetic unease with ownership
> without relationship. I feel very uneasy about what it
> means to be able to posses anything as one's own - i
> am uneasy even about self. How can a selfless person
> own anything?
platt:
A selfish person places a high value on freedom for himself and
others. .
msh:
Selfish people often claim to care about the rights of others, but
their actions almost always belie their self-comforting rhetoric.
Suppose someone patents a life-saving drug with the intention of
maximizing profits for himself. In what sense does this person care
about the freedom (to live) of people who cannot afford his price?
What about a car company executive who decides to conceal known
dangers inherent in his product (a tendency to explode on impact for
example) because his actuarial accountants have assured him that
settling lawsuits filed on behalf of the killed and injured will be
less expensive than instituting a recall?
> maxwell: I feel uneasy about owning anything that is simply
> regarded as mine because i am at social liberty to
> deny other people.
platt:
By owning things I don't deny others the right to own the same
things.
msh:
This is simply false. If you own the water or mineral rights to all
the land in your community, how can others in the community own those
rights?
> maxwell: What i am aiming at is this: If we begin with
> the assumption that anyone can and indeed does own
> that which they can not have the time to form mutually
> enriching relationships with, then it may be there is
> a degree after which it becomes low quality to assume
> you can posses things.
> Once this degree is transcended, the best that can be
> achieved may be the social power and influence one
> gains over those who are denied. I think this relates
> to the situation you regard to be immoral Platte.
platt:
The question I would pose is: Who decides when ownership becomes low
quality?
msh:
If one truly embraces the Metaphysics of Quality, the decision is
made by examining the moral hierarchy. Low-quality ownership is that
which leads to the destabilization of society. See my examples
above. If a society's ownership arrangements are such that large
numbers of people are unable to afford basic services and products--
food, water, clothing, shelter, life-saving drugs-- then the society
may be destabilized to the point of its own destruction. History is
full of examples of such self-destruction.
> maxwell: I am happy you find Chomsky to be of some value.
> Tobacco production, processing and proliferation by
> legal marketing strategies creates jobs and revenue.
> The fact that it kills millions of people does not
> seem to be differentiated from legal revenue
> generation and job provision by successive U.S.
> governments in the way Chomsky and children appear to
> understand.
platt:
Numbers killed by smoking pale in comparison to numbers killed by
governments.
msh:
Your insistence on playing the "numbers killed" game is off-point and
obstructive of honest discussion. Not to mention obscene. And, in
this case, your numbers are simply wrong:
"Tobacco is the second major cause of death in the world. It is
currently responsible for the death of one in ten adults worldwide
(about 5 million deaths each year). If current smoking patterns
continue, it will cause some 10 million deaths each year by 2020.
Half the people that smoke today -that is about 650 million people-
will eventually be killed by tobacco."
http://www.who.int/tobacco/en/
platt:
Finally, there are a lot of people around who want to be admired for
their selflessness, especially politicians who pride themselves on
their "public service." It's not hard to detect the contradiction and
hypocrisy in their "selfless" pose.
msh:
The only pose here is yours in pretending to know the motives of
everyone who works for the public good. Besides, what matters is
what people do, not why they do it. Ad hominem attacks on motives
rather than analysis of results is just another way of derailing
meaningful discussion.
Mark Steven Heyman (msh)
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