Re: MD Varieties of Buddhism, and the Social Level

From: Scott Roberts (jse885@cox.net)
Date: Sat Jul 16 2005 - 16:04:47 BST

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Sam,

Sam said:
Much to my chagrin, I couldn't make the conference with RMP, but I had the
small compensation of two weeks holiday in China and Mongolia to distract
me. Amongst many fascinating things were trips to several Buddhist temples,
in Beijing and Chengde, which were eye opening in many senses. There were
several ways in which the practice of religious observance in the temples
was social level. The most striking, for me, was when we were told by a
guide that it was common practice (as a 'minimum observance') to come to the
monastery once a year and ask a monk to pray on your behalf. Hardly the
'intellectual level' that I thought was the essence of Buddhism!

What really struck me was the way in which the impression of Buddhism that I
had formed (largely as a result of various conversations on this site) was
of something very austere and intellectual. That impression didn't long
survive a direct acquaintance with the actual practice. It seems to me now
that there is a distinct strain of idealisation involved in many of the
descriptions of Buddhism relied on here (and also a reverse strain of
denigration towards Christianity). It's as if Christianity were to be
assessed only by considering the Eckharts of the tradition, whilst all the
Lourdes type stuff were quietly ignored.

Scott:
I think I've pointed this out a few times -- that the social/intellectual
dimensions of Buddhism and Christianity were about the same.

Sam said:
The specific question to Ant and Scott: the temples/lamaseries I saw were
all part of Tibetan Buddhism; to what extent is the MoQ tied in only with
Zen buddhism (and therefore incompatible with the Tibetan variety)? It would
seem - to this beginning student - that Zen is much further removed from
these social level practices than the Tibetan sort, with their 30 foot high
wooden buddhas used as a focus for worship.

Scott:
There are a couple of points to make. First, the MOQ is Zen-focused, but
even within Zen, there is a particular version of Zen that the MOQ has
adopted. Recall the Magliola quote from several months back about centric
Zen versus differential Zen? Pirsig appears to only be familiar with the
centric version, which is not surprising, since this is the form in which it
was introduced into the West by DT Suzuki and Alan Watts. (Actually, I think
Suzuki's position is more complicated -- maybe he toned down the
differential aspect for his Western audience). One reason for this, I
believe, is that it fit better into the 50's beatnik version of
Romanticism -- where rationality was considered square.

On Tibetan Buddhism, one is again confronted with the intellectual side and
the much larger social side. But on that intellectual side there is clearly
an appreciation of intellect. One part of the training of monks is to learn
debating skills, to employ reason to deconstruct a belief in
"self-existence". It all stems from Nagarjuna, and in my opinion, the
Gelukba sect of Tibetan Buddhism is more faithful to that intellectual
tradition than the centric Zen of the MOQ. But, again, these are the monks,
not the hoi polloi spinning prayer wheels.

By the way, if you want an interesting portrayal of Zen on the ground (as
practiced in Japan and in the U.S., the good and the bad), I recommend Jan
Willem van de Wetering's memoirs: An Empty Mirror, A Glimpse of Nothingness,
and AfterZen.

- Scott

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In reply to: Sam Norton: "MD Varieties of Buddhism, and the Social Level"
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