From: Mark Steven Heyman (markheyman@infoproconsulting.com)
Date: Tue Jul 26 2005 - 19:42:28 BST
Hi Sam, and all,
On 25 Jul 2005 at 16:16, Sam Norton wrote:
msh 7-23-05:
Here's another bigoted ill-informed and unsupported opinion,
recently posted:
"I'm satisfied that the answer to the Why question is simply that
it's better to exist than not. But of course that answer won't
satisfy everybody, especially Muslim terrorists who gladly blow
themselves out of existence so as to be rewarded with an eternity of
fornication. "
The ignorance and bigotry behind the phrase "Muslim Terrorist" has
been pointed out by Ant McWatt. The ignorance of the quote in
general will be obvious to anyone who explores the real reasons
behind so-called terrorists attacks.
sam 7-25-05
The trouble is that those who carry out these acts *describe
themselves* as Muslim,
msh 7-26-05:
But they don't describe themselves as "Muslim Terrorists." To
suggest that the use of the phrase in this case is purely descriptive
is disingenuous of you. The combination of the terms is meant to
convey a fundamental connection between them, which is further
entrenched through repetition followed by comments such as "who
gladly blow themselves out of existence so as to be rewarded with an
eternity of fornication. "
sam 7-25-05:
Moreover, the roots of the terrorist acts do go deeply into
particular traditions of Islamic theology, in so far as I understand
them (NOT mainstream ones I hasten to add, where suicide, and
especially the murder of a fellow muslim, is seen as the greatest sin
possible). But they are drawn from the wahhabi tradition, coming down
via people like Qutb. Perhaps calling them 'Qutbists' would be more
accurate - but waiting for the journalistic professionals to get that
sophisticated might require a lot of patience.
msh 7-26-05:
The desire for an "eternity of fornication" goes deeply into some
traditions of Islamic theology? This may be true, but I doubt it; I
don't know enough about the wahhabi tradition, or Outb, to make a
judgement. Perhaps Khaled can provide more information. Are you
suggesting that the author of the offending remark is well-versed in
the wahhabi tradition, that the intent of his remark was merely to
add a little historical background to the discussion? Please, my
friend. The "eternity of fornication" stuff is right out of
Limbaugh, not Outb.
sam 7-25-05:
Also, calling them 'muslim' seems no less accurate than calling
various of the organisations that support George Bush 'Christian',
and as that is conventionally accepted, both on this forum and
elsewhere, I see no reason why the same loose short-hand should be
objected to when referring to the terrorist acts.
msh 7-26-05:
Again, the phrase that's being objected to is "Muslim Terrorist," as
used in the way it is in the offered quotes. Lemme know when people
on this list start referring to GWB and Blair as "Christian
Terrorists," doing what they do to secure a blissful eternity in
heaven. I'll be the first to object to such remarks.
sam 7-25-05:
If we are to abandon the word 'muslim' as an adjective in this
context, might we also abandon the use of the word 'Christian' when
describing the crusades and the Inquisition?
msh 7-26-05:
We need to be careful in using EITHER adjective. I would strongly
object to anyone who characterizes the Inquisition and Crusades as an
expression of Christian theology; they were an obscene aberration of
Christian theology conducted by people interested in maintaining and
expanding power.
sam 7-25-05:
Finally, the phrase about 'real reasons' begs a few too many
questions.
msh 7-26-05:
I don't see this as begging a question, but as a rational request
that we thoroughly explore what's behind these attacks, rather than
write them off as being carried out by a bunch of whackos looking to
get laid in heaven.
sam 7-25-05:
Of all the reasons that might apply to a 21 year old British citizen
blowing himself and other people up on the tube, what
I think is of most importance are the ones that make him different to
all the other 21 year old muslims coming from Leeds, who didn't
choose that course of action.
msh 7-26-05:
Well, if I were a Londoner riding the tube, the important question
would be, why are more and more people opting for terrorism as a
means of expressing political dissent? That 21 year old British
citizen wasn't born with the idea to blow himself up. Every report
indicates that terrorist attacks are INCREASING dramatically
throughout the world, just as predicted, not only by guys like Zinn,
Parenti, Chomsky, but by our own intelligence services. What's
wrong with asking why?
sam 7-25-05:
If 'real reasons' ignores any question of his personal choice in the
matter then it is reducing him to a thing, no longer responsible for
his own actions, and that is as demeaning and dehumanising as it
gets. Or are you saying that different standards apply? I can't
imagine a more precisely racist perspective than that.
msh 7-26-05:
I agree he made a personal choice. As above, the important question
is what drove him to it? You can dismiss him for now as an
"aberration" of your society (what makes him different to all the
other 21 year old muslims coming from Leeds), but this does nothing
to help us understand, and predict, when the next kid from Leeds or
elsewhere in England or the world, makes the same choice. And, also
above, the numbers of such "aberations" is clearly increasing.
sam 7-25-05:
There's only one race: human. I'm sure we're agreed on that.
msh 7-26-05:
Some of us are agreed on that. Not nearly enough, not yet, I'm
afraid. And the sort of comments criticized in this thread only
drive the wedge deeper.
Best,
Mark Steven Heyman (msh)
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