From: Horse (horse@darkstar.uk.net)
Date: Fri Aug 12 2005 - 02:12:13 BST
Hi Platt
On 11 Aug 2005 at 10:18, Platt Holden wrote:
> Hi Horse,
>
> > Good God. First it's Bio/Chem attacks, now you're dragging out the 'oh my
> > god we could be nuked at any minute' nonsense. What sort of a paranoid
> > world do you live in Platt. This is reds under the bed stuff.
>
> I guess it's the same world that environmentalists live in with their
> doomsday "we're all gonna die" scenarios.
As we all will I'm sure. But let's hope and work to stay around as long as possible. You
too Platt. Your political views may drive me and others nuts (as I'm sure mine do) but I
still value them.
>
> > And perhaps
> > if you feel this is a real threat then maybe you'd agree that a good way to
> > prevent this would be not to sell others the means and technology to do
> > such a thing.
>
> Sell? Last time I looked it was China and Pakistan selling nuclear know-
> how to countries that support terrorism.
Is the U.S. and Israel still buying stuff from over there - I didn't know that.
>
> > Better still, stop interfering in their politics, murdering
> > their children and invading their countries in order to maintain control of
> > oil and then telling them it's for their own good. Then maybe they wouldn't
> > feel the need to perform these terrorist acts.
>
> Yes, stop interfering with regimes like Saddam's where thousands are mass
> murdered by poison gas and where throwing dissidents alive into
> woodchippers is considered good. I thought you leftists were
> humanitarians, concerned about helping relieve the downtrodden from their
> misery all over the world. How come your "caring" doesn't apply to Iraq?
> Racism perhaps?
It does apply to Iraq. That's why so many want the US (and the UK) out. Then there may
be a chance that the violence will subside. I can't see it happening before that. There
were a lot of us that protested about the Iraqi gassings (1988/9 I think) and the lack of
sincere condemnation from your country. After all you carried on supporting Saddam
even after the gassings. And supported him during the years he was doing horrendous
thing to his people.
>
> > As I said earlier there is no mention of destroying the patient. It is only
> > the biological PATTERNS that need to be destroyed or limited and there are
> > a number of way of doing this without killing all the patterns and DQ.
> > Pirsig does not go on to say "and in order to destroy these germs the
> > doctor must destroy all the other patterns and DQ as well". Substitute
> > 'harmful biological patterns' for germs. How does a doctor destroy harmful
> > biological patterns? This is the crux of the argument. Does he destroy the
> > patient (all patterns and DQ) or ONLY the harmful biological patterns? As
> > Mark says, the doctor destroying germs is a figure of speech. Human beings
> > are not just biological patterns they are all patterns and DQ. You'd have
> > thought Pirsig would be aware of this wouldn't you? And being aware of
> > this, if he'd have wanted to extend the figure of speech to include all
> > patterns and DQ he'd have done it. As he doesn't do this then I can only
> > conclude that it was intentional. In other words, this is not a charter to
> > kill people but only those biological patterns that casue harm. Perhaps
> > conservatives have a tough time facing up to this.
>
> A fine rationalization of Pirsig's definitive statement whose stark
> message to limit or destroy human biological (criminal) behavior
> "intellectual" leftists cannot stomach. No wonder they've earned the label
> "soft on crime."
Not a rationalisation but a rational assessment of what Pirsig actually says. Can you
show me a statement by Pirsig which explicitly states that germs and people are
equivalent as you contend, or that a doctor should destroy germs by killing the patient
which is what you appear to believe.
One thing I did notice in the above is that your language has shifted a bit. I have no
problem with limiting and/or destroying human biological (criminal) behaviour, I just
prefer not to kill the patient along with it. A bit like Pirsig really.
>
> P:
> > > If they (Muslims) abhor terrorism so much, why don't they declare war on it?
>
> H:
> > Perhaps because their entire social structure isn't based on militaristic
> > metaphors.
>
> If they object to war, how about doing something besides talk? Anything?
Yeah. Changing the way the Muslim communities view their position in British society -
i.e. socialisation. Acceptance that killing civilians is wrong. And a whole host of other
stuff. Most Moslems (in the UK and elsewhere) are moderate and do not support
terrorism or terrorists.
>
> > > Their silence in the public square is deafening, not to mention their
> > > lack of activity in seeking out and turning over to the police the
> > > terrorists among them.
> >
> > Have you never heard of Sir Iqbal Sacranie?
>
> Muted words only. I've yet to see action. Further, according to the NY
> Times, "The mainstream Muslim Council of Britain also assailed Mr. Blair's
> announcement, saying 'if there are groups that are thought to be
> contravening our laws, then they ought to be prosecuted in the courts, not
> driven underground."
This is in response to banning a number of Moslem groups, many of whom are opposed
to violence. I thought you were for freedom of speech Platt. Does this only apply where
you agree with what others have to say?
>
> If that's an expression of cooperation with the government in trying to
> prevent further terrorist attacks, we might as well surrender to the
> radical mullahs now.
I believe the idea here is to prevent further alienation of Moslem communities.
Personally I find much of what the British National Party has to say is extremely
offensive and overtly racist. They also have many extremists who preach violence
against 'foreigners' - even though these 'foreigners' are British. Why aren't they being
banned as well? The hypocrisy of the Blair government seems to know no bounds.
Cheers
Horse
MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
Mail Archives:
Aug '98 - Oct '02 - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
Nov '02 Onward - http://www.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/summary.html
MD Queries - horse@darkstar.uk.net
To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.5 : Fri Aug 12 2005 - 12:13:08 BST