RE: MD Rhetoric

From: Paul Turner (paul@turnerbc.co.uk)
Date: Mon Aug 15 2005 - 09:16:27 BST

  • Next message: C.L. Everett: "MD What is mainstream Christianity?"
  • Next message: Kevin Perez: "Re: DQ as spirituality? / Q as God? (was: MD Worlds Worst Kept Secret)"
  • Next message: MarshaV: "Re: MD Worlds Worst Kept Secret"
  • Next message: MarshaV: "Re: MD ZMM--See what he saw?"
  • Next message: Paul Turner: "RE: MD Self-Evident MoQ Truths"
  • Next message: ian glendinning: "Re: MD Conflict"

    Matt, David,

    >Sometimes it seems like what counts as
    >mysticism is easily assimilated into pragmatist terms. Sometimes it
    >doesn't.

    Paul: A brief suggestion on this. I think assimilating mysticism into
    pragmatist terms could be achieved, or at least started, by reading a
    typical mystic assertion that 'reality is undivided' as saying something
    like 'reality isn't inherently divided and related in any particular way'
    and therefore that 'reality can be divided and related in every possible
    way'. This is in accordance with e.g. the Buddhist conception of 'no-self'
    which states that nothing has inherent self-existence but is dependently
    originated.

    The pragmatist idea that reality is divided in such a way as to best cope
    with it doesn't contradict anything here as far as I can tell. Nor does it
    contradict the MOQ idea that something is only distinguished from something
    else if it is valued.

    Rorty says in "A World without Substances or Essences":

    "We antiessentialists would like to convince you that it also does not pay
    to be essentialist about tables, stars, electrons, human beings, academic
    disciplines, social institutions, or anything else. We suggest that you
    think of all such objects as resembling numbers in the following respect:
    there is nothing to be known about them except an initially large, and
    forever expandable, web of relations to other objects. Everything that can
    serve as the term of a relation can be dissolved into another set of
    relations, and so on for ever."

    In these terms, enlightenment isn't about seeing 'the way the world really
    is' e.g. "it really is an undivided whole," but is more about being aware
    that 'the world really isn't configured in any way in particular'. I think
    mysticism differs from pragmatism in that it promotes an experience in which
    all 'sets of relations' are temporarily 'dissolved'. But I think the
    philosophical consequences of both are very similar. (This is what I was
    trying to say in Liverpool, David.)

    In terms of Zen practice, it is aimed at experientially showing the lack of
    inherent self-existence and this can be quite a traumatic, overwhelming and
    profound experience which may lead to people referring to the experience
    itself as enlightenment. Of course, it *is*, but I think the returning to
    'divided reality' with this awareness should also be considered
    enlightenment and is the actual benefit of mysticism.

    Hope this helps.

    Regards

    Paul

    MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
    Mail Archives:
    Aug '98 - Oct '02 - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
    Nov '02 Onward - http://www.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/summary.html
    MD Queries - horse@darkstar.uk.net

    To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
    http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html



    This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.5 : Mon Aug 15 2005 - 10:55:49 BST