Re: MD Debating Intellect MoQ-Wise

From: mark maxwell (laughingpines@yahoo.co.uk)
Date: Fri Sep 02 2005 - 20:40:35 BST

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    Hello Ian and Scott,
    Ian told me he was debating the intellect in this
    thread so i thought i would take a look-see, as i had
    been taking an interest in a quote from ZMM in the ZMM
    p.250 syllogism post.

    Ian:
    I think your (Scott's) symbolic manipulation is one
    part of intelligence (a linguistic part and therefore
    very important part) but I doubt it will be very
    satisfactory as the whole definition of "intellect".

    Mark 2-9-05:
    Ian, Symbolic manipulation is far more than linguistic
    in the MOQ.
    Symbolic manipulation is everything not socially
    learnt by imitation. Many aspects of language are
    learnt socially at first, and later manipulated
    independently from their original meaning.

    Ian:
    You do highlight one of the issues, more significant
    in this higher layer - the extent to which it is
    really "static".

    Mark 2-9-05:
    I would suggest that the total repertoire of symbols
    is static while DQ evolves the whole repertoire all
    the time. The repertoire includes memories, books, the
    Internet, etc.

    Ian:
    The rate of
    evolution in this layer is greater than the others,
    and we probably
    have many static patterns within in, (and that's
    really what we're
    talking about) rather than the whole "slab" of
    intellect being
    "static"

    Mark 2-9-05:
    It is the repertoire of static value patterns which
    exist in memories, books, the Internet, etc. which is
    static while DQ evolves this repertoire forward i
    would suggest.
    The source of DQ motivation requires refinement, but
    when it does, it must include algorithms within AI for
    example.

    Ian:
    - if it were, it would be hard to avoid Bo's
    conclusion that
    it just represents GOF-Intellect, as so far propounded
    by Pirsig.

    Mark 2-9-05:
    I'm afraid i do not understand what good old fashioned
    intellect as propounded by Pirsig is? As far as i
    remember, even Pirsig suggests that AI is intelligence
    and this does not seem to be old fashioned but rather
    contemporary in nature.

    Ian:
    For me this just becomes a mildly interesting picture
    of what had
    evolved historically as far as SOMist intellect before
    the MoQ,

    Mark 2-9-05:
    Ian, IMHO, SOM is a pattern within the repertoire and
    not the intellect at any stage of its evolution. This
    is an important distinction i feel. The MOQ is also a
    pattern within the repertoire.
    SOM and the MOQ are not intellect.

    Ian:
    but
    leaves the MoQ itself out in the cold - as little more
    that the
    mystery of DQ processes themselves. I'm trying to "add
    value" to that
    picture.

    Mark 2-9-05:
    The MOQ is within the total sum of all symbols
    comprising the intellectual repertoire. DQ is not in
    the repertoire and can not be included.

    Ian:
    I think your "working intellect" aspect is a valid
    part of this thread.

    Ian

    Mark 2-9-05:
    Our own experience tells us the repertoire of symbols
    is evolving right under our noses. If Scott is
    providing a description of that process then i will be
    very interested indeed. However, as with all
    descriptions, it will be, IMHO, a static description.
    This is where Ian's "Draw me a picture" has resonance
    because the difference between describing and doing is
    all the difference in the world.

    Mark

                    
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